Opinion
Disgrace at Western Wall
Peretz Rodman
Published: 22.11.09, 18:43
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31. Don't allow
Rafael ,   Jerusalem   (11.23.09)
The Reform and Conservative movements have destroyed Judaism in the Galut, so who needs them here? Frankel dresses like a man, and I'm sure that most Jewish parents don't want her to set an example for their own daughters.
32. #30 - After 5000 years of Jewish women covering their hair
rebecca ,   Modiin   (11.23.09)
Jews remain the most civilised and LIBERAL "group" in the world. If you knew a bit about Jewish law you would know why these things are as they are, and of the alternatives available to us, women. I'm much happier covering my hair and being consisered repressed by you, than exposing my body so you can oggle it and call me liberated.
33. Get your facts right...
Gershon ,   Kfar Saba   (11.23.09)
Rabbi Rodman quotes Rabbi Farber as saying that even if the security guards of 40 years ago did not understand Yiddish, "The rabbi of the Kotel, though, most certainly did." The Rav of the Kotel 40 years ago was Rabbi Yehuda Meir Getz. As he was born in Tunis, I very much doubt if he was a Yiddish speaker
34. Kotel
Ellen ,   Israel/USA   (11.23.09)
The kotel is much more than the small portion accessible at the Kotel plaza. It is not the fault of the Orthodox of non-Orthodox streams of Judaism have decided that other areas are not as important. Learn alittle and you will realize that they are all important. As a modern Orthodox women I am so sick and tired of non-Orthodox telling me how oppressed I am. Guess what, I have a brain and intelligence and can figure out for myself that I am happy. Problem with non-Orthodox is that for the vast majority their Judaism begins and ends in the synagogue---and by extension the kotel. So, if they don't participate exactly the same as men--they have nothing. Prayer service is a small part of Judaism. Live like a Jew, act like a Jew, think like a Jew and you'll be surprised how fufilled you can be---even without a tallit.
35. it is really sad, let´s stop orthodox now(END)
Daniel ,   Santiago ; Chile   (11.23.09)
36. Jews Orthodoxy is dangerous for Israel(end)
Pamela ,   Santiago; Chile   (11.23.09)
37. #31 Destroyed Judaism?
Jordan ,   Brampton, Canada   (11.23.09)
More like revitalized it. The Orthodoxy takes the interpretation of the scriptures to the extreme where it creates ignorance and intolerance (two things not needed in todays modern world). And just to make you angry, I ate meat with dairy a few days ago. :P
38. The Disgrace is Praying to Wall
Don ,   Jamaica   (11.23.09)
Praying to a Wall...That which is treated as a god is forbidden....Pagans and Idolaters you to have hope.
39. To 24 Martin , in galut i suppose
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.23.09)
No Martin , being Jewish is belonging to the Jewish people . You don't need to be religious or follow the Torah laws to be a GOOD Jew . Tell me , who is better Jew . This secular atheist , who gave a full time Jewish education to his children while still begalut , and as result the whole family made Alyah , on one side . Or the "religious" one who still sits begalut and is complaining about the price of kosher meat there . Try to observe the Mitzwa , as the Rambam called it , and come and live in Israel
40. to 24 , Martin , in Galut i suppose . TRY # 2
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.23.09)
No Martin , being Jewish is not only being religious , as Jews are a PEOPLE . You can be a Jew without following the Torah . Period . And now a question to you : who is a better Jew , this secular who gave a full time expensive Jewish education to his children when living in galut , and as a result the WHOLE family made Alyah on one side . Or on the opposite side this person who follows the Torah laws , lives in galut and complains about the price of meat there , and does NOT listen to what the Rambam said : living in Israel is one of the greatest Mitzwoth .
41. What did the "Orthodox" and other charidi do
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.23.09)
to liberate the Kotel ? were it they who gave their blood for this liberation ? [ maybe some of them of course ] Oh yes , we had Rav Goren who blew the Shofar and said : this year , this day , in Liberated Yeroushalaim [ not literrally ] . The most emotional day when i heard it , live , while still abroad .
42. 31 , Rafael , Yeroushalaim
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.23.09)
More than 40 years ago i had a discussion with a liberal Rabbi . He said that he prefered Jews to come to the Beth Knesset on Shabbat by car [ it was in Paris ] , over not coming and loosing every touch with Judaism . Is this destroying Judaism ?
43. 31 Rafael
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.23.09)
how do you know that miss Frankel dresses as a man ? Have you seen her ? And what is dressing as a man ? Pants ? they are very feminine , and don't forget : we live in the 21 st century , and i prefer to see a woman in nice pants than some of those who look as scarecrows [ not all of course look so ]
44. TWO POINTS TO PONDER...
DAVE NEIL ,   JERUSALEM ISRAEL   (11.23.09)
1. WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION OF THESE WOMEN DOING THESE THINGS? TO GET CLOSER TO G-D OR DO THEY THINK ORTHODOX JUDAISM NEEDS TO BE FIXED AND THEY WANT TO BE THE ONES TO FIX IT? IF IT IS THE 2ND MOTIVATON THEN THEY ARE JUST PROVOKING THE ORTHODOX.... SECONDLY- WHY IS THE CONSERVATIVE MOVEMENT IN ISRAEL ALWAYS BUSY ITSELF IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER WITH BEING ANTI-ORTHODOX INSTEAD OF BEING FOR ANYTHING- ALSO WHY DO THEY JOIN WITH THE REFORM AGAINST THE ORTHODOX IF THEY BELIEVE THAT HALACHA IS BINDING AND MANY MANY THINGS THAT REFORM DON'T BELIEVE- AGAIN I THINK IT IS BECAUSE CONSERVATIVE IN ISRAEL ISN'T A PRO-ANYTHING MOVEMENT - IT IS ONLY AN ORTHODOX MOVEMENT.
45. Oh Please
David ,   Jerusalem   (11.23.09)
The reform and conservative movements (let's call the latter what they are) have designated places at the wall where they can conduct whatever kind of service they want, including who they want, and led by who they want. They barged in on the orthodox section and disrupted their prayers out of straight up intolerance for the traditional way of practicing Judaism. And that makes it a protest and we have laws against all protests at the wall. They need to chill out, back off, and leave us traditional types alone.
46. Men built the wall.
harry lavoe ,   orange county usa   (11.23.09)
Men wrote the torah. Kindergarden is over.
47. yes, we need lesbian, gay and transgender minyanim
david   (11.24.09)
us conservatives have been brave enough to allow gay and lesbian rabbis, why are you orthodox so primitive? the torah only disallows anal intercourse, but all other forms of gay love are perfectly fine.
48. Contradiction of terms
Eliyahu ,   Yrushalayim   (11.24.09)
The word Jew comes from Yhudah the meaning of which can be found in this weeks parasha. It has the meaning of thanking HaSheim. Within the word Yhudah is HaSheim's name. Maybe that is why we don't use the correct term Yhudim because we would not only have to consider He exists but also thank Him. How confusing is it for someone to be an atheist and be proud that they are a Jew and belong, they say, to the Jewish people? Generally everything else they say is jibberish too. These atheists do like to pick and choose which mitzwoth they will keep. Living in the land is a big one for them. Shabbat is not so big for them.
49. Women and the wall
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (11.24.09)
The emancipation of women in participation in prayer services is slowly moving forward. It already exists in the Reform & Conservative movements. The status of women in the world no longer consists of just home, cooking & children. Women in the world are in every field of endeavor including military combat positions. The separation and attitude towards women stems from, what I believe is a misinterpreted, section in the Torah dealing with women on the temple mount and the prevailing attitude towards women when these practices were put in place. The time has come for reevaluation of these practices and full emancipation of the female gender.
50. Tallit & Women History
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot, Israel   (11.24.09)
Historically, the tallit has mostly been permitted for use by women (Isaac ibn Ghiyyat (b. 1038), Rashi (1040-1105), Rabbenu Tam (ca 1100-1171), Zerachya ben Yitzhak Halevi of Lunel (ca 1125-1186), Rambam (1135−1204), R. Eliezer ben Yoel Halevi (ca 1140-ca 1225), Rashba (1235−1310), Aharon Halevi of Barcelona (b. ca 1235?), R. Yisrael Yaaqob Alghazi (1680-1761), R. Yomtob ben Yisrael Alghazi (1726-1802)), but with a gradual movement towards prohibition mainly initiated by the Medieval Ashkenazi Rabbi Meir von Rothenburg (the Maharam). Since the 1970s, in non-Orthodox denominations of Judaism it may be worn by women. Amongst Karaim, the mitzvah of tzitzit is viewed as equally binding for men and women, and both sexes therefore generally wear tallitot. The reasons women have not generally worn the tallit and may not do so in Orthodox Judaism include the fact that four-cornered garments were originally considered men's garb, and the Bible prohibits women from wearing men's clothing (Deuteronomy 22:5) and it is a mitzvah that is performed at a specific time of the day (women are exempted from such mitzvot). I think the orthodox may now be incorrect in considering a tallit as for men only
51. Very well said!
(11.24.09)
Thanks for this great article, I could not agree more with Rabbi Rodman.
52. Who tries to give lessons to TRUE Jews ?
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (11.24.09)
Since when can an idolatry believer and a follower of an yeshu believer tell TRUE Jews how to behave ? Since when can they judge the behaviour of , contrary to them , TRUE Jews . They think that by stealing a Jewish name they can become Jewish . They belong in a church , that's their place .
53. ashamed to be an Israeli
nadav ,   tel aviv   (11.24.09)
It is t rue that there was virtually NO response among Israelis and Israeli media. Well, for what its worth, I was outraged and so were my friends. Unfortunately, i blame the secular Jews rather than the Orthodox- who are predictable in their backward world view. Secular Israelis don't care about this issue; they see religion as literally black and white- Haredi. They do NOT recognize Reform or Conservative Judaism and see it as a foreign/american invention and- unfortunately, they see Orthodoxy (which is nothing but a reactionary modern version of Judaism steeped in superstition) as legitimate because of their brainwashing in Israeli schools (YES even the secular ones!). That woman's arrest at the Western Wall is a disgrace and is a day that will live in infamy!
54. Next steps for society
Annoyed at you all ,   New York   (11.24.09)
I think our next steps should be to eliminate seperation of restrooms. We should have equality and allow women to use the men's bathroom. Maybe they want to use the stall instead of the toilet.
55. Burqas anyone?
Michal ,   Los Angeles   (11.24.09)
The only thing that separates us from the radical religious groups (echem, you know who)) that subjugate women is the evolved state of not forcing anyone to practice the way we do. Any regression the Sanhedrin style dominance and ancient un-evolved ways of the past means we are stagnant and care nothing for the living breathing changing nature of the gift of Torah we were given. The Jewish nation has grown up to respect freedom, and free will. The Orthodox people need to root out those who would try to force observance, and thereby actually turn people away from Hashem which is a TERRIBLE Sin!!! This Rabbi should have tried to help these women study, started a dialogue, did something other than behaving like the frickin Iranian Guard. I say, FIRED!
56. To rebecca #32
Grant Freedom ,   Niagra Falls, NY   (11.24.09)
Be assured that I have no desire to oggle at you. Nor do I have any thing against married women covering their hair. What I am oppoosed to is women being FORCED to cover their hair by community standards. You say that the Jews are probably the most civilized of people. That may be true but then why was a woman beaten while praying? Oh and by the way I am not a liberal but a conservative Grant Freedom
57. Excuse me..
Paul ,   TRINIDAD   (11.25.09)
... and the difference between jews and musilms is ....what?
58. Women of Reform Judaism praying at the
Samir S. Halabi ,   Geneva, Switzerland.   (11.25.09)
Nafrat Frankel doesn't show any respect towards the male orthodox jews praying at the Kottel. Why does she put on a Tallith and take with her a torah to the Kottel, to be truthful this is not acceptable Judaism. However if she wants to pray at the kottel why doesn't she go were women are allowed to pray, as in orthodoxy judaism men and women are definitely not seated together, they are either separated by a curtain or seated in a balcony above. This person has shown complete lack of respect, she was just making a point that she can do as she wishes, as she doesn't regard the orthodox version of Judaism legitimate any longer, only her form of judaism is acceptable. I saw a video how so called reform judaism operates for Rosh-Hashana in the USA.It was truly abhorent.
59. jews
sara ,   israel   (11.26.09)
i must tell you dear "religious people" that if a jew can't be safe in his/her own country because of the "religious terrorists" i do not know why there is a jewish state i hope one day GOD will give us a "regime" /democratic one to stop all those crazy religious criminals When i emigrated to Israel i was happy to be HOME ,but i got the same like in every other non jew country The religious hate me because i am a jew ,and i want a nice free life for me and my familly I teach my children to obeid the lows of the country ,and i send them to army ,to protect us and them ,and me and my husband are working hard and pay taxes ,and i can't live free in my home ,my town ,my country?So i can emigrate to any place inh the world and i will live in the same conditions -others will hate us because we are jews And i think this is it ,i do not want my children to serve and work in a place that have not the same "low" for every body ,and they are "the anemy" this is no democratie,may be we all have to do something about it,than the memshala will understand that the low is the same and what is the meaning of democratie
60. to be or not to be a Woman !
Jojo ,   Prt. Wash NY   (11.26.09)
Why this unsaintly behavior?, simply because orthodox and other extremist Jews said so. Like their islamic cousins, they consider women " Schmatess ". Their conclusion after 20 years brainwashing (like the imams) in a Yeshivah, under the watchful eye of the almighty. I agree with # 5, world citizen; Change or die. A fundamentalist sect like Talmudic judaism would tear the country apart due to it's inherent sexism and racism.
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