Okay, Solomon the wise, what do you propose? A Sophie's Choice scenario? There are no facts in evidence; just a lot of unproved allegations, seemingly from both sides. The article states that all four left Sweden for Israel together, and that the father, having made no effort to integrate himself into Israeli society, returned to Sweden. Unless he had a written agreement signed by both parties stipulating otherwise, legally, his act constitutes voluntary abandonment. I'm not going to quibble this point with you; I have the utmost respect for your reasoned and articulate posts on every topic you address. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. Let's also not assume facts or syndromes not conclusively in evidence.

Sara, what ridiciolous sorces you bring especially for me as a swedish jew. But we can unite in two things at least. Swedish jews vote with their feet. Aparently they prefer sweden and a lot of other countries to israel. Second in israel you get horrible treatment not heard from anywhere in the west. Right?

this case is the pure and simple act of trying to deny the children to a parent. What undo efforts and pressure is that parent willing to inflict on a child and to what harm will they allow to happen, if, it gets them what they want? From my personal experience that self destructive adult is more than a little danger to everyone around them. That is a fact you'd here from my own daughter. I hope the father reads all this and understands that firmness in pursuing his rights as a parent coupled with the understanding that children intrinsically value fairness, honesty and compromise can win him this battle with his ex even if he can't win in court. The child is the final arbitrator of who's the best parent. Focus your efforts on there.

Would the child be safer on Israeli streets than Swedish streets? No shortage of Jew-hating Arabs, and ugly incidents on either. You've been busy as a bee on this posting, and those were some good sites you threw out.

"Sara, what ridiciolous sorces you bring especially for me as a swedish jew." You think The Washington Times, The Jewish Agency and The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs are "ridiculous" sources? Curious. Uninformed, actually, but .... that would be your problem, not mine. "But we can unite in two things at least. Swedish jews vote with their feet. Aparently they prefer sweden and a lot of other countries to israel." No, the way I understand it, a great many Jews have LEFT Sweden -- for Israel. Reading comprehension isn't your strong point, I guess. "Second in israel you get horrible treatment not heard from anywhere in the west. Right?" Wrong. Israel is the only place in the world where Jews are truly welcome.

Joe, I don't think children -- especially children this young -- should be the final arbiter on anything, let alone which is the better parent. At that age, children are liable to consider the better parent to be the one who buys them whatever they want and lets them eat ice cream all day in lieu of real meals. They are equally liable to consider the parent who instructs, disciplines and teaches proper behavior to be "bad," because the parent does not let the child do whatever the child wants. I think we should probably wait for more news accounts and official assessments of both the mother and the father before jumping to any hasty conclusions. That said -- the children are Jewish. Another poster asked me how I could be sure? I am, because there is no way that an Arab or a Druze woman would return to her family with two children born out of wedlock. She'd be killed in order to preserve the family's alleged "honor." The children would suffer a similar fate. Jewish children belong in a Jewish environment. Not only is Sweden not a Jewish environment, it is becoming an increasingly anti-Semitic one. I guess we'll see what develops.

1) What does PAS mean? 2) You are wrong. The children are Jewish because their mother IS Jewish. It has been like that for all times and will continue to be like that. 3) You make some good points in your post (#20) however when you write “In essence, PAS recognizes the rights of both parents to parent and the rights of each child to be parented by both parents” this is good in theory but not in practice, it is sometimes not possible as in this case and I am going to explain why. There is the Atlantic Ocean between each country (Israel & Sweden) separating the parents and just like any long distance relationships, it won’t work. It’s not like every week-end one of the parents can drop off the kids to stay with the other parent, or to go and see a school play or attend a recital or whatever. It is just not feasible. I am not sure why but I don’t think the article gives the whole picture. Charles in Petach Tikvah (#27) is absolutely right…everyone seems to forget about the children and this in itself is a bloody crime. It is heart-breaking to hear of a child who wishes to go to sleep and never wake up. The parents made their bed (had kids) it is time to lie in it. Even if one or both will suffer, better them than the children. It looks like the father will have to put up with the heat of Israel or the mother with the ever increasing Moslem population in Sweden and that’s that. With all the divorces and custody battles going on, there is this new thing in North America. Now the judge asks the child (or children) for their opinion. They ask where they will rather live (not with whom). It is very wrong for a mother to bad-mouth the father and vice-versa. If they really love their children, they “zip it” for their sake. Shabbat Shalom,

It is sad to read stories like these. And it is sad to see stupid, insensitive, racist reactions such as Debbie's. And Michael, as one Jewish immigrant from Western Europe to one from Northern Europe, I can assure you that Swedish Jews are not less Jewish than the Jews here. On the contrary, many Jews here - and unfortunately, a large part of that category consists of ultra-orthodox and other religious Jews - have forgotten what Judaism is all about, what factors ensured our survival for so many centuries, and how we won this state of ours. Like a zest for oppression and making a quick buck, a racist feeling of superiority was not one of those factors, believe me.

...in Israel you get horrible treatment ....you wrote . Can you please explain me how i'm horribly treated ? i would like to know it . PS I made Alyah from a West European country .

Israel and Sweden ? There is a person who needs her little son to correct her , you need to have a look at a map .

for them . The court ruled that it was in Sweden , and they know more than you about this case .

In your last but one sentence : .....and that the children will return to Israel [ ??????? ] by mid December , as the judges ruled

Yes, I do try to keep busy on my days off. Keeps me out of the bars and pool halls, you know? I hope you had an enjoyable Thanksgiving. Happy holidays.

It wouldn't be the first time that courts have made a dreadful mistake.

came home finially. She wanted to come home at 9 (Mom wouldn't allow it) I stand by everything I said in my earlier post where the focus was on dealing with your child and not bribing them.

your speciality ! But of course , you know it better ? Ainredenisch is arger wi a krenk .

Can't she be a non Arab Christian ? So don't be so sure .

Why are you here?

Yes, I'm pretty sure. How sure are you that she is not?

Regardless of what religion the children belong to, the point is that they are citizens of Sweden. Being jewish doesn't automatically mean you must live in Israel. If their home is in Sweden then the mother have no right to simply keep the children in another country against the will of the father. The Swedish jewish population has been stabile at around 20.000 for many years, most of the refugees after world war 2 have now left Sweden, but most of them actually opting for north america and europe over Israel. So you're correct that many jews have left Sweden although very few of them have been part of the Swedish jewish community.

And to all other talk-backers, I offer my apologies. I wrote my post late last night and was tired. When I mentioned there was an ocean between the two countries, I was thinking Canada/Sweden. Trust me, I grew up in Paris (France) and I traveled all over Europe in my youth...everything is so closed and connected. either by train or car or plane. I was not thinking straight last night plus the articled bugged me because I don't like to read about children suffering. Having said that "Charles dear", this is no reason to come down hard on me. You always seem to know (or make it look that way) better than any other talk-bakers and you are often wrong in your judgments. I happen to agree in most parts with Sarah B of USA/Israel I wish Terry from Eilat would return to the talk-backs...Now here is a person who always made sense while expressing his opinions. I still don’t know the meaning of "PAS" (is it Parents Against Shit-heads?)

i don't say it . I did'nt say that she is not Jewish , i only asked you how do you know it . You being "sure" is far from being a proof . You are not "infallible" , you certainly not .

I have read that the intermariage rate in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries is very high, so if these kids are Jewish, which is the better country for them to remain in and marry Jews?

Okay; point taken. I had not realized that you were divorced or that there were custody issues. I am grateful to be able to say that I have no experience with divorce and custody issues. I therefore defer to your wisdom, born out of personal experience. Best wishes for a happy holiday season and a healthy, happy and prosperous New Year. Sarah

When you are tired ....errors occur ! Chere Ginette , is telling you to look at a map " coming down hard to you " ? You need , if talk backing , a "peau d'elephant" . Yes , there are subjects that i know very well . If you think that i'm wrong , your comments are welcome [ but as this did not happen often as far i remember .....]. I too , often agree with Sarah , but dislike it when she comes with very wrong arguments . She often looses all credibility by exagerating . Do you think that there are people who don't know that Paris is in France ? I know Europe very well too , not only born in West Europe , but lived there most of my life . But i made Alyah ....

Actually when I read your talkback (#40), I was more upset with myself than at you because it does sound stupid to write about an ocean separating Israel & Sweden and I don't like to look or feel silly, even for one minute. This is the "miss perfect, paying attention to details" syndrome in me. Despite the stuff I went through in my life, my skin is not that thick, as in an elephant. This could be why some articles on YNet bother me more than other (I am thinking of the little girl Rose whom after the first article I read about her, I could not read anymore!) Boy I wish I could make aliyah right now but I just can't. One (un-married) son living in Jerusalem and one married son living in Canada who has two beautiful daughters and they all need me. So yes, as soon as I can, I will make aliyah because in my eyes there is no other country I would rather live in and I don't care about the government corruption, I don't care if there might be some hardship down the road, I don't care about any of it. Israel is going to be my last place to live in (except for 1 month in Canada)...hummm maybe my skin is thicker than I originally thought? Shavouah Tov,

Don't be upset with yourself . Only people who write something can make errors . That's what i always say : people who don't do [ or write ] anything , can't make a mistake . [ ma sagesse ! LOL ] Having a "peau d'elephant" means that you can "encaisser" , accept "dans un certain sens" that people will give you not so nice names . It's very different , in my view , than being "sensible" to other's , and certainly children's suffering . Well , having a child in two very distanced countries , i know it . My Mother ZL , had my sisters here and me in Western Europe . Both sides with little children . All the best to you .