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Israel gears to fight Swedish initiative
Roni Sofer
Published: 07.12.09, 08:04
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31. To: George at No. 15
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Thank you very much for your kind remarks. George, my husband doesn't agree with my views all the time, either. Neither do my friends. What a boring world it would be if everyone marched in lockstep all the time. The point, I think, is to raise credible arguments which are documented and supported by the facts. The European Union, as you correctly point out, has aligned itself unmistakably with the spurious Palestinian Arab cause. It is a shame that the members of the European Union do not recognize the absurdity of deciding a national capital of a state that does not exist. But it seems that when it comes to issues promoting specious and unfounded Palestinian Arab causes, all manner of ludicrous and meaningless pronouncements become magically acceptable. Doesn’t say much for the European Union. Six wars; three rejected opportunities for a two-state solution, sixty-one plus years of terror -- I do believe that the Palestinian Arabs have made their true wishes clear. No more bites at the apple; the member states of the European Union are free to give the Palestinian Arabs a "homeland" within their borders. Israel's right to exist exactly where she is remains unassailable, claiming borders which were set in the course of fighting defensive wars. The views of the European Union are irrelevant. Thank you again, George, for your kind words and extremely articulate and thoughtful post.
32. To: No. 13
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
It is remarkable that you persist in putting your ignorance on display time and again. Have you NO pride whatsoever? "Right vs. Wrong?" The Palestinian Arabs had three opportunities to accept a two-state solution -- including one which would have included East Jerusalem -- all of which they rejected. Six wars, dear, all started by Arabs and won by Israel. "Right vs. Wrong" is irrelevant. I note that you scrupulously managed to avoid addressing the "Right vs. Wrong" Issue with respect to European settlers depriving native Americans of their land. Your silence speaks volumes. The archeological evidence which supports the presence of Jews in the region going back several millennia and the existence of a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital is unassailable. There, now we have dispensed with the Bible, which you dismiss as a book of stories – what say you to the abundant archeological evidence? The fact that it is 2009, about to be 2010, does not change international convention and statute. These support Israel, and are not time-bound. But I am not surprised that you are unaware of this. You do not seem to be terribly well-grounded in fact or history of the region. For that matter, you appear to be dismally ignorant of the history of the United States. You need to be considerably better-informed on Middle Eastern history generally, and geopolitical conflict specifically, in order to post on this forum. Unless, of course, you enjoy having your ridiculous posts ripped to shreds and dismissed out of hand.
33. To: No. 19 - Part 1 of 2
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Israel should sever ties with Sweden because Sweden has clearly committed itself to a goal that is unsupported factually, historically or in international law and precedent. Swedish views on Israel -- and Jews, I might add -- are clear and unequivocal. Your comment about my analyses is absurd. I have documented news articles in support of my comments; thus far, you have failed to do so. Throwing out words is meaningless if you cannot back them up; again, you have thus far failed to offer up anything but words -- hollow ones, at that.
34. To: No. 19 - Part 2 of 2
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Where ever did you get the idea that Palestinian Arabs have lived there for "generations?" They are now, and have always been, squatters in non-sovereign territory. I very strongly suggest that you brush up on your “facts.” The following is an excerpt from Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad," which puts paid once and for all to the Palestinian myth of lush olive groves and orchards. Hard to believe that the fertile and forested Israel of today is the bleak, desolate and abandoned Palestine that Mark Twain visited. "Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. The hills are barren, they are dull of color, they are unpicturesque in shape. The valleys are unsightly deserts fringed with a feeble vegetation that has an expression about it of being sorrowful and despondent. The Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee sleep in the midst of a vast stretch of hill and plain wherein the eye rests upon no pleasant tint, no striking object, no soft picture dreaming in a purple haze or mottled with the shadows of the clouds. Every outline is harsh, every feature is distinct, there is no perspective -- distance works no enchantment here. It is a hopeless, dreary, heart-broken land. " "Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Where Sodom and Gomorrah reared their domes and towers, that solemn sea now floods the plain, in whose bitter waters no living thing exists -- over whose waveless surface the blistering air hangs motionless and dead -- about whose borders nothing grows but weeds, and scattering tufts of cane, and that treacherous fruit that promises refreshment to parching lips, but turns to ashes at the touch. Nazareth is forlorn; about that ford of Jordan where the hosts of Israel entered the Promised Land with songs of rejoicing, one finds only a squalid camp of fantastic Bedouins of the desert; Jericho the accursed, lies a moldering ruin, to-day, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago; Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Saviour's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang Peace on earth, good will to men, is untenanted by any living creature, and unblessed by any feature that is pleasant to the eye. Renowned Jerusalem itself, the stateliest name in history, has lost all its ancient grandeur, and is become a pauper village; the riches of Solomon are no longer there to compel the admiration of visiting Oriental queens; the wonderful temple which was the pride and the glory of Israel, is gone, and the Ottoman crescent is lifted above the spot where, on that most memorable day in the annals of the world, they reared the Holy Cross. The noted Sea of Galilee, where Roman fleets once rode at anchor and the disciples of the Saviour sailed in their ships, was long ago deserted by the devotees of war and commerce, and its borders are a silent wilderness; Capernaum is a shapeless ruin; Magdala is the home of beggared Arabs; Bethsaida and Chorazin have vanished from the earth, and the "desert places" round about them where thousands of men once listened to the Saviour's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes."
35. To: No. 20
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Let's see -- judging from the past sixty-one plus years, what "you want" are wars (all of which you lost), terror on an unparalleled scale (which has caused you to be universally reviled) and three offers of a two-state solution, each of which has been rejected (there will be no fourth offer). The results of getting what "you want" are not all that impressive -- a fractious and bellicose Palestinian Arab community comprising of thirty or so organizations each purporting to be the sole true representative of your people – crushing unemployment in the PA, rampant inflation, crumbling infrastructure and a “leadership” that has spent billions of dollars and billions of euros in aid intended to benefit the Palestinian Arab people and attract foreign investment opportunities on lavish second and third homes in Europe and creating extremely hefty offshore bank accounts which benefit them and not the Palestinian Arab community. Hospitals and universities have closed, and your "leadership" grows ever fatter. If this is representative of what “you want,” here’s hoping that you continue to get what precisely what “you want.” You deserve no less.
36. Oh Madeline.....
Desiree ,   Allentown,Pa.   (12.07.09)
Now let me get this straight because i have an opinion, one in which you don't like then you call me a name that being, an anti-semite.. my dear girl you make me laugh.. i stopped reading your thoughts after that because your words sounded like the teacher from the cartoon Charlie Brown. When name calling begins it is when all logic fails and since you can only understand elementary school/juvenile names heres one for you.. you are a judeo-nazi and a fascist.. and your support for a war criminal state is shameful...Good for Sweden...
37. Hey Sarah B....
Desiree ,   Allentown, pa,   (12.07.09)
Your words sound so familiar to me.. thats right, you sound exactly like the teacher from the cartoon Charlie Brown wah wha wah.... focus on the article and not on the people.. we all have a right to our opinions and thought.. Your attacks are clearly insecuritys that you know Israel is wrong in many many ways.. GO SWEDEN
38. To: No. 37
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Desiree, if you can proffer anything substantive to counter the many posts that have called your opinions into question, I would be more than happy to respond. Sadly, your posts are boringly (and, I might add, rather stupidly) repetitive, and I do believe that most of the serious posters have left cartoons and cartoon characters in their childhood. If the best you can do is to sling wildly inapposite allusions to cartoon characters, you are seriously out of your depth. I, for one, do not watch cartoons. That you do is testament enough to your immaturity and abject lack of knowledge. Sorry. Try again when (if ever) you have grown up.
39. Desiree , Allentown, Pa
Robert ,   Oklahoma City/USA   (12.07.09)
You can sit there and say all you want about Palistine and Sweeden. But the FACT is Israel won all of the land they currently own in a war that was precpitated on them. They were attacked by Syria, Jordan and Egypt for doing one thing, declaring themselves to be a Nation. When the original accords were drawn up they so called "Paestinians" were given a homeland, they refused and threw it back in Israels face. Everytime they were given something by anyone they said NO. Why? Because they want ALL of Israel, with NO Israelis in it, not just a small portion of it. So your argument holds no salt. Read your history if you can.
40. # Desiree - 22,24,27,28,29,30,36, 37
Igor ,   NL   (12.07.09)
Desiree- everybody loves you…I wonder what your profession is. Should be interesting! You have so much time in your hands to post and repost here. You must be unemployed. If this is the case why not join the US marines, go to Uruzgan to serve your president to save your country out of shame. I am even not sure you live in America. You should be posting in the middle of the night for that. No sleep? Have no boyfriend? Let's see -- judging from the past sixty-one plus years, what "you want" are wars (all of which you lost), terror on an unparalleled scale (which has caused you to be universally reviled) and three offers of a two-state solution, each of which has been rejected (there will be no fourth offer). The results of getting what "you want" are not all that impressive . Read the rest from Sarah #35 up here. Your support for Islamic terrorism is just shameful.
41. To Sara B.. what I know of sweden.
Michael Diamant ,   Haifa, Israel   (12.07.09)
Well, I was born and rasied in sweden. I speak swedish as a mother tounge, I know the culture and read on a daily basis swedish newspapers and discuss things with swedes. But of course you know more and the foreign newsarticles you bring. :D Sara you are truly hillarous. As a jew there are issues living in sweden but they are minor to living in israel. Generally you recieve a million times better treatment in sweden as a jew. So the choise is just how much u value judaism to your life. I want to remain jewish and therefor I moved. But I will never abandon the moral values I learned in lutheran sweden.
42. Denying palestinians is like denying jews
Michael Diamant ,   Haifa, Israel   (12.07.09)
I am no leftist. But I hate stupid extremist on both right and left. Denying the existence of the palestinian ethnicity is like denying the jewish one. The Yemeny jews look and act like yemeinte arabs, the ethiopian like.. etc. In what way are we more a people than the palestinians? Ethnicity is real aswell as imagined. The jewish people exist becuase we recognize each other as being part of the same people despite the obvious differences.
43. To: No. 41
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.07.09)
Michael, dear, it would appear that what you "know" about Sweden flies in the fact of demonstrable proof. So sorry. But I think that the most demonstrable words you have chosen to utter are that you have wanted to remain Jewish. Whether you choose to remain loyal to "Lutheran Sweden" is therefore a moot point. Make your choice, Michael, and stick with it. Which is it? Lutheran Swedish calumny, or Jewish right and reason?
44. Honesty and hard work?
Michael Diamant ,   Haifa, Israel   (12.07.09)
Well Sara. You dont know a zit about sweden and you dont speak the language. I am a jew whom grew up and lived my 28 years in sweden. I have been very active in the jewish student organisation at Stockholms University so please dont even try to lecture me about sweden or how jews have it there. 26 jews moved from sweden to israel this year, a tiny drop in the ocean. On the other hand, if you go to the jewish community they are flodded by jewish non russian israelis. I am of course loyal to sweden as I see it as my homecountry which israel is not yet. Lutheran values Israel would need. What are these? hard work and honesty not heard of in this country. If you live in israel, what is your comment about the total lack of trust and honesty in this country? Jewish values?
45. To: No. 44
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
Well, I guess a graduate degree from Uppsala doesn't matter to you, eh? Please, Michael. You are embarrasing yourself. I would respectfully request that you convert before you embarrass yourself further. Your spurious claims to the contrary notwithstanding, you, sir, are no Jew. Please feel free to remain loyal to sweden. Leave Israel, and take your place among the anti-Israel, anti-Jewish hordes in Sweden. You most assuredly will not be missed. As salaam aleikum, Michael. Have a really nice life.
46. #6 All Jerusalem
Gregor ,   Hesperia, USA   (12.08.09)
Belongs to the Jews God gave it to them thousands of years ago. They have been in Israel continuously since at least a remanemt has. The Palestinains have only been there for less that one hundred years. You have obviously been fed the PA and Arab propaganda your whole life. Its not your fault that you don't know thr true history of the region. But believe me Jerusalem was and always will be the capitol of Israel and will never belong to the Palestinains Never...
47. EU & Israel
harv ,   pahoa, hi   (12.08.09)
Sweeden might not have a tradition of historical significance that goes back 4,000 years but Israel does. What history books do the swedes use?
48. #46 and Igor
Desiree ,   Allentown, Pa.   (12.08.09)
stop using religion as a shield to condone war criminal acts.. the bible is a bunch of stories. We are living in 2009 where there are laws, rules, etc.. get your head out of your you know where.. and focus brother.. Igor.. your name says it all! gross. Israel is selfish, steals and murders women and children.. war criminals..
49. Muslim will soon be the minority even in E. J'lm
Bloodyscot ,   Dallas, Texas   (12.08.09)
Israel just needs 2 or 3 more years, last year set a record for stripping Muslims of their city residence and with the courts finally taking action on old Jewish land claims. If afew laws can be changed then the Muslims will be gone before the EU proposal will even matter.
50. To: No. 48
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
Okay, Desiree, we'll leave religion alone for the moment. Let's talk about war crimes for a bit. How would you characterize suicide bombings deliberately targeting innocent civilians? How would you characterize eight years of missile barrages fired on a daily basis at an innocent civilian population (targeting, I might add, children in pre-schools and elementary schools)? Are those "war crimes?" Since you have demonstrated rather a poor knowledge of international law, I will answer that for you. Yes, they are indeed war crimes. Curiously, you fail to mention them. Now, I find I must ask you this. Should the United States cede itself back to England because England did not mean to lose the Revolutionary War? Should the United States restore Guam and Puerto Rico to Spain because Spain really did not mean to lose the Spanish-American War of 1898? How about World War I? I am more than certain that Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire really didn't intend to lose the war, but lose it they did. What do you suggest? A great big community hug and an all-is-forgiven mentality? Same goes for World War II. Shall the United States and the Allied powers restore geographical Europe to the way it was on August 31, 1939? I'm willing to bet the Poles, the French and the Russians -- not to mention the Romanians -- won't be happy, but let's do it anyway, right, because it is perfectly in accord with your pea brain. Let's go back to 1945 and say to Germany -- hell, you lost the war, but we want to be nice guys. We'll let you set the terms of surrender. And while we're at it, Desiree, let's go back and let the Japanese set the terms of surrender. Hell, why not? That's the way your brain works, right? Well, Desiree, here are some facts which will doubtless make you most unhappy: - The United Nations offered partition of the lands controlled by the British under the Mandate to the Jews and to the Arabs. One tiny sliver of land designated as the Jewish state; one much larger portion of territory designated as the Arab state. The Jews accepted. The Arabs did not, and five Arab armies invaded the nascent State of Israel one day after Israel's declaration of statehood. Guess what happened? Yup. For once, you are correct. The Arabs lost. They didn't mean to, they certainly did want to, but THEY LOST. Oops! - Following that offer of partition, Israel very graciously and generously offered the Arabs, on two occasions, a two-state solution. The Arabs rejected it, both times, including one which would have ceded East Jerusalem to a proposed Palestinian Arab state. Gee, Desiree, you'd think that would have been more than acceptable to the Arabs, because that is what they are agitating for! But they rejected it and chose to launch an intifada. They came out much more the worse for wear on that one -- hey, what's a person to do? The Arabs are victims of their own making, salted with a large dash of idiocy. Not Israel's fault. The offer was on the table -- and rejected. Too, too bad. The offer has since been rescinded. Hey, sweetie -- can't put toothpaste back into the tube, right? - Six wars -- all started by the Arabs, I might add -- and won by Israel. The Arabs are a vanquished people, and do not get to set the terms and conditions for anything. That's just the way the world has worked for millennia. - Sixty-one plus years of unrelenting Arab terror on a global scale. ‘nuff said. You, Desiree, are a fool. A virulently Jew-hating, Israel-hating fool. Deal with it, sweetie, and move on.
51. To: No. 44, redux
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
Oh, I know Sweden quite well. I've been there at least a dozen times (my work takes me there) and I have seen with my own eyes the changing face of Sweden (literally). I have gone to synagogue in Stockholm and Gothenburg, and met with the Jewish communities there. Both communities are very concerned with the rising tide of Jew hatred in Sweden. I have been to Malmo on quite a few occasions. The Jewish community in Malmo lives in outright fear, citing the ever-growing, increasingly hostile Moslem and Arab community in Malmo. The Jews there say that they can no longer count on the police to protect them. Evidently the police are bending over backward to be nice and accommodating to the Moslem and Arab community. Defacing the synagogues of Malmo -- which I am told the Arabs and Moslems do on a routine basis -- no longer elicits a response from the police. Do you know what they tell the Jewish community leaders? I will tell you. The police tell them to clean it up, repaint and stop bothering the police with "nonsense." Moreover, I must mention that Sweden couldn't exactly have been such a wonderful place on earth for the Jews -- or you would never have left. Is that right?
52. Sara B (4 baloney) #50
Desiree ,   Allentown, pa.   (12.08.09)
LAUGH LAUGH LAUGH LAUGH IN YOUR FACE!
53. to sarah PP head... #45
Desiree ,   Allentown, pa.   (12.08.09)
You shouldn't write that you have a graduate degree from Uppsala salami school, for you need not have a degree to show your true ignorance and arrogance as in your uppity fluffity case.. you are an emabarrassment towards jews.. i tink you should not speak for you put your big nose in your mouth.. i again, laugh in your face.. HA!
54. To: No. 49
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
When the Berlin wall cam down, tens of thousands of West Germans flocked into the East and reclaimed homes which were theirs before they fled to the West. The people who had lived there since the war’s end had to pack up and leave. Did you protest that? Over two million Italians were forcibly uprooted and deported when the region of Istria was ceded to Yugoslavia following World War II. There property was confiscated. Istria remains a part of Croatia to this day. Did you protest that? Approximately eleven million Hungarians found themselves turned to Romanians overnight following World War I, when lands formerly belonging to the Austro-Hungarian empire were ceded over to Romania. Did you protest that? When the United States occupied Okinawa following World War II, they unceremoniously forced out all of the Japanese natives -- who had lived there for centuries. Did you protest that? Want some more examples? I've got them, in spades. And I am willing to bet the farm that you protested nary a one. It would appear that you protest only the rightful restoration of Jewish homes to Jewish people. Your reasons are your own, but I do wish to point out that you are being hypocritical for focusing on Jerusalem exclusively, and failing entirely to mention other examples. Be careful, now. Your hatred of Jews and Israel is showing, and it does not cast you ion a particularly good light. Unless, of course, you think being an unrepentant hypocrite is a particularly good thing. Do you? Your posts would indicate that you think precisely that.
55. To: No. 53 - Second Attempt
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
"PP head?" Are your parents related, or did someone drop you on your head when you were a baby? For the record, I do not have a graduate degree from Uppsala, nor did I claim to. I do have two Swedish friends who do, and they are in part the source of my knowledge of Sweden. Needless to say, I have been to Sweden quite a few times, and a great deal of what I know is based in personal experience. That said, I do have a Master's in International Affairs from Harvard, and a law degree, also from Harvard. Go back to your cartoons, little girl, and leave this forum to the adults. "PP head?" You are SERIOUSLY defective.
56. To: No. 52
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.08.09)
You forgot the "nyah, nyah, nyah,"
57. Desiree #48 You do not understand my post #40. Read it again
Igor ,   NL   (12.08.09)
58. To Israel: You should be proud Sweden
Igor ,   NL   (12.08.09)
To Israel, You should be proud for your citizen Prof Jonath getting the Nobel Prize in Sweden this year. I wish my country could have the same.
59. The anti-semitic wagon.
Dennis ,   Gothenburg, Sweden   (12.09.09)
Jews love to jump on the anti-semitic wagon. As soon as Israel gets critimze, whether it's right or wrong, Israel bluntly judge them as anti-semitic. Israel have repeatdly shown their ludicrous attemps. Just like how Lieberman judge the entire nation of Sweden as anti-semitic, because of an article made in Aftonbladet. I'm happy to say that Sweden didnt respond in the same way that most nations due, that being: to resign. Nope, instead they said: WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH. It's clear that the zionist regime does not want peace, it comes of in everything that they do. They will meet their own demise, a regime that is based on terrorism will never last.
60. #59 you r right.
Desiree ,   Allentown, Pa   (12.09.09)
I agree w/you... 100% just like i was attacked on this "talk-Back" and called 'anti-semitic' for agreeing w/Sweden on actually "doing" something. Jews/Israel's have now become what they once feared and hate.. that being (not all) Judeo-Nazi's.. And Sarah B, is one of the big Gustapo judeo-police here.. shame on you.. Also, Lieberman is a criminal for he assaulted a 12 year old boy.
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