maybe you feel there were not enough Christians that tried to help Jewish. I am sure you are not the only one who feels like that and I'm sincerely sorry that you and others feel that way... really! I also know in my heart and that there were many so called Christians that caused many atrocities and were involved in genocide...this we all know but those people will rot in hell! my comment to you Kate is clear. you made a comment to Charles stating that "after all we are on the same side and not strangers". so what exactly does that mean? I have a question for you also. how many innocent and good Palestinians have you helped? are they all terrible? tell me why you and a lot of your Jewish brothers and sisters haven't helped some of those innocent people both Muslims and/or Christians?... could it be because they are not Jewish and you are so focussed on you and yours that you couldn't care about them? ask yourself that question?

Sir, you are inspiring! Also, I know it would be far easier for you to discredit the good people of Poland and many other countries because of what your people had gone through... I am probably not half the person you are! The reason I wanted to tell you this is because I think there are always two sides to everything. I (as a European living in Canada) feel sad and even guilt sometimes to know that maybe someone in my country or even in my family circle may have caused discrimination or atrocities... as a Catholic these things scare me and I feel sick about it... BUT... I know many many many people who have told me stories about how the Jewish people in their countries were helped... and so for this I feel happy and hope! You, a living Jew are confirming these types of stories and I thank you for sharing this with myself and others who look at these types of forums! I think many other Jews are unwilling and refuse to admit to these stories of compassion... " screw him and the whole likes of 'em" - 3rd comment on here. This is a typical Jewish attitude which I find insulting. Today, everyone is an anti semite if they oppose a Jewish opinion or don't have their own version of certain points in history and I don't think its fair! Thank you for your input!

But Ynet did not publish.it was all self explanatory and not offensive to Christians.If you only knew what I wrote to you.Too late now to begin. Suffice to say I know a lot about the Catholic Church(are you one)or of another denomination .Whichever,bothers me not. Please calm down,no need to get so upset. Who is now being hateful by your surmise that Jews do not help pals? If that was the case why do you think so many Arab/Israelis prefer to live in Israel rather than go to any of their Arab/Muslim brothers countries? Culd it be because they have freedom of expression,all the benefits,have a seat in the Knesset? Even become the enemies within.What say you to that? When I told Charles :after all we are not strangers--what do you think I meant?I was just sympathizing because I did not know his background until he told me.No more and no less. His suffered,mine were too young except some the family lost touch and we'll never know. Now be a good fellow and stop going on a tangent by bringing in the Arabs that we have had enough with anyway capiche? We have enough headaches to deak with,without adding the Christians into the mix. Do you want me to say: Mea culpa,mea maxima culpa?Okay,if it makes you feel better,by all means. Sincere Regards K

Six Miliion Jews died.FACT. Are we going to agonize and apologize for that? I read Dino's ,Charles's and Mordechai Traub 's responses. I understand.But_is_SIX_million_comparable_to (let us be generous )to the both of you.. Rescued 80.000 Jews saved,out of SIX MILLION.The rest,what of them? Do the math then you can correct me or not I'd appreciate it. Please someone educate me.Tell me was it all hunky,dorry? And to Charles my friend: About the Jewish traitors:I can well believe it,heard it. IT WAS A CASE OF SURVIVAL knowing some were going to witnesses,as it so hasppened and we saw,and read it in our newspapers,all be,it even at the "leftists" haaretz. At the end of the day,this is almost like adding insult to injury.Sorry people.

One thing comes to mind here. The fact those children who were saved & brought up by the catholic church and converting them,did not returned them once the parents were found to be alive was a gross misjudgement. There are many who still do not know who their real parents are and to this day are trying to find them. Sad very sad. If one reads of ordinary fostered out children who in their entire life feel the loss instinctively and want to find their real parents.A normal reaction don't you think. Same as the rescued Jewish kids.

This guy who was on the gestapo payroll in Brussels did it voluntarely , nobody obliged him . His name was jacques , and his fate unknown . He was probably eliminated by the resistance or the nazis themselve My wife , and 16 other Jewish girls , who were hiding in a convent , were betrayed by another Jew , three survived . It's a long story , but there were also very brave Jews and gentiles involved in the saving of my wife and her older sister . This traitor was executed after the liberation of Paris . Where did you take 80,000 saved ? In Poland 55,000 thousand survived , mostly hidden by Polish Braves . In France , if my memory is correct , 225,000 survived , in Belgium 25,000 . But you did'nt answer my question: would you endanger your , and your family's life , in order to save a stranger ? I told you this part of my life only in order to show you that to hide and save a family , or a single person , many people were involved . More others were witnessing it , without betraying . The landlord , our neighboors , the shopowners , almost all of them knew we were Jewish .

Churches in Germany are paid by the governement at the pro rata of their members [ it was so some years ago , probably did'nt change ] this is also the same for the Jewish synagogues . In the Netherlands the situation was comparable . Untill the 1990's everyone had to register at the town hall to wich religion he belonged . This was so before the Shoa , and facilitated the nazi persecution of the Jews . Regarding Jewish children hidden in monastries there is a case where the responsible priest did'nt want to estrange those Jewish children from their roots , did'nt baptise them , told them that they had to go to mass because it was for their security [ people otherwise would ask questions ] and if my memory is good , even gave them some lessons in Judaism [ i had read it somewhere ]

There could have been more Jews saved ? most probably yes . But there was not much food , everything was on tickets or at the black market [ not affordable for everyone you can imagine ] So to feed some more people , not everyone could or would do it . So not only was it very dangerous [ mostly in Poland ] but also very problematic regarding food .

As i wrote it already . i'm trying to stay objective . Of course it would be easier for me to , as many are doing , attack the church as a whole . But it would not be HONEST because there were wonderfull Christians all over Europe who saved Jews . There were others too of course who collaborated with the nazis .

I have heard many many stories, from both sides... the Christian version and the Jewish version and this is the whole point of this discussion. My only real point for posting on this forum was to ask people to not continue to write untruthful comments unless they really know both sides of the story. I am a Croatian... do I hate all Serbs? They killed my grandfather, they took our land, they imposed their cyrillic writing and language, placed Serbian people in Government jobs (75%), made the chief of the police a Serb, gave the Mayor of the city position to a Serb.... all of this in a town of 90,000 people and 95% Croats.... even more when they invaded Croatia and Slovenia they raped our mothers, grandmothers and daughters and forced our men to watch and far more atrocities which are too graphic for this site! We had never in history whether it is in our history books or theirs invaded we only defended our own land! Do I hate them? I can't and as a human being I won't accept anyone saying they are all bad! I just do what I can to move forward with my life even though the wounds cut very deep! Who wanted comminism? We weren't even allowed to practice our religion without being discriminated against! Pius XII did what he could. I know of a Cardinal in Croatia who was praised for saving many Jewish lives but in other peoples opinions he was a Nazi! Why would that be? Maybe because he saved Jewish lives but at the same time he had to preserve the interest of our Nation and our religion! Maybe Pius had to do the same. There have been stories that when Pius remotely made a public comment about saving mankind and being human that the next day the Nazi's would respond by immediately killing 2000 more Jews to send a message... AND... priests and monks were also killed as an example! So why would he be vocal? Could sending a quiet message throughout the Catholic community have been the only way to save lives? I hope... really I do... to one day in my life see more responsible people from all religions, respect between religions and more emphasis on being correct as humans. Everyone knows the stats... 6 million dead! The most emabarassing and ugly time in history but don't continue to put blame and false accusations if you don't know and understand for sure! Continuing to cry about history that cannot be changed is not good, we are reminded og those times every day... don't forget the atrocities that are happening today! If you are a real Jew... and honest Jew, you will be more objective, stop talking false facts before you can really open your mind and try to understand fact... fact's that aren't just written to discredit others and favor your opinions because this creates hatred! I know the stories about my country as well... positive and negative! And I also know that if I am honest with myself I have to believe certain things I wish weren't true but also I feel very very proud of my country, our people and my religion for many positive things!

You have become my "mentor",or should I say My "guru".If you only knew and read the denials by many of the "HOLOCAUST" and the 6 million who after all did not die. According to them only a few thousands died.Doesn't that make a mockery of the whole thing. I have been asking/reading to find the actual number (helped by people,deducting the numbers )versus the 6 millions. . Couldn't get a direct referral. Did you know of the following:Bishop Richard Williamson: 'I don't believe six million Jews were gassed'. Historical evidence, is strongly against, is hugely against six million Jews being deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler. Richard Williamson must have known exactly what he was doing, in front of a camera crew, when he repeated what he had said in Canada twenty years ago: I do not belief in the deliberate extermination of six million Jews in Nazi gas chambers during World War II. . Can you tell me how many Jews perished(not counting ones who were hidden/helped thus survived)? Was it SIX Million Or,Or,Or?

From which country you originated. And now you tell us it is Croatia. Well Dino,during the war the Croats were fighting with/for Hitler. You probably knew that anyway. Yes? What was the problem when Tito was in power? he too was a Croat. Apart from his following a mild type of communism(independant ly) not affiliated to USSR. .The only thing was the dire economic situation and the poverty.But there was no strife or fighting as it is now with the Isamofascists. The separation from Serbia has been a big disaster,and people are experiencing its consequences. Dino why do you live in Canada and not in Croatia? Just curious,since you love your erstwhile country so much?

I can only give you information i found in my books and in http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org then go to library - Holocaust - victims . There NO exact numbers of the victims , as in many places Jews were not registered in city hall or other places . The estimates turn always around six million victims . Try to find : Raoul Hilbeerg's "the destruction of the European Jews" or Martin Gilbert's : the Holocaust .

But Pius XII did'nt say anything AFTER the war when there was'nt any "danger" anymore ! The Vatican helped nazi criminals to escape to south America , AFTER ther war . There were sometimes big "fights" to have Jewish children returned to their family [ The Finaly brothers as an example ] after the war . But as long as the Vatican's archives will not be accessible , we will continue to blame him , not the whole church .

Charles, I agree with you and understand your concern. Politics and Religion should never mix but unfortunately they have and still do. In the end there is no escape Charles... we will all be judged whether we like it or not... even the Pope!

I am talking about prewar Germany,were catholics paid a special tax,going either to Rome,or for the upkeep of local catholic institutions,i don't know whether those taxes were paid voluntarily,or by law,concerning Jewish children in Monasteries,in 1 case the priest conducted a seder with the Jewish children,The Holocaust researcher Saul Ffriedlander as a child was hidden in monastery,he told the priest that he wishes to convert,the priest responded,no,you have to stay a Jew,in the french movie," good bye my children," during Mass, the priest is pushing away a Jewish boy wishing to get the holy bread,Those priests and Nuns that saved Jews,didn't do it by the order of the pope,but because of their own conscience,after the war the pope believed that the Jewish children hidden in monasteries,belong to the church as spoils of war,charles,you must be familiar with the case of the Dutch Jewish girl Enka Bekman,whose parents were orthodox Jews,the woman who hid her during the war, refused to return her to her Jewish aunt,when the cardinal was asked to persuade the woman to return the child,the cardinal issued a laconic statement "The woman will not stray from her christian faith by returning the child" The woman anderstood the hint,kept the child,who converted to christianity,and collected the inheritance of her parents.

I know a woman who was hidden in a monastery,and after the war reunited with her parents,unfortunately there were few cases like that,Aharon Lustig,later, cardinal Lustaje and his sister converted to christianity while in a monastery,after the war,inspite of the urging of their parents,they refused to return to Judaism.

I knew this Anneke Beekman case . The best known remains this of the Finaly brothers who were after a long battle reunited with family and immigrated to Israel , where both were successfull . Was this tax [ pre war ] also paid by other faiths [ protestants ?]

You claim that Jews make many allegations and false comments,you are not only a antisemite,you are also ignorant of the facts,Jews remember their rescuers in poland ,Hungary,Ukraine,Bosnia,and other places,There is a Jewish organization, called ,The Jewish Foundation,that sends every year millons of Dollars to the rescuers of Jews,who are old and sick,so,they can buy food,medicine,and pay rent,finally,after some hesitation,you revealed your true colors, that you are a croat,what the serbs did to you and the muslims,is terrible,but you fail to mention what your people,the croats did to the sebs,Jews,gypsies during ww 2 you were very loyal to your master the Austrian vagabond,and very devoted catholics,gold confiscated from the gypsies was send to the vatican in Rome,no allied pilot shot down over croatia survived, they were all killed by croation "patriots".1 of the first acts that franjo Tudjman,the president of croatia after the collapse of yugoslavia did,was writing a Antisemitic book,so why don't you correct your own flaws,before targeting the Jews ?.You castigate Kate about helping the palestinians,the only help the palestinian want,is to help them destroy Israel,which i am sure you are willing to give them,a while back,brothers Hamas shot off the legs of brothers Fatah,Guess,where were they treated,those palestinian who were maimed for life ? well, they were treated not in Egypt or Jordan but in evil Israel who provided them with artificial limbs,so you see yuo are wrong all the way.

According to Wikipedia,the church tax was inacted by the weimar republic in 1919 and it covered protastants,catholics,and Jews,the tax was 8% of income, and was federal tax deductible,and affected only members of church-synagogue.regarding pope Pius,he was not symphatetic to national socialism,but was in love with Germany, he surrounded himself with Germans,the chef,the servants were all Germans,if he could he would have turned the italians into Germans,it could be 1of the reasons why he was so soft on Germany,in regard of the exterminatin of the Jews,was his believe that Germany under the leadership of the Austrian vagabond,will defeat the anti christ,stalin,in his weltanshaung,the Jews had no importance,and were a small price to be paid to the Germans in order to defeat stalin. when Eugenio Pachely was elected pope someone who knew him said:He is more suitable to be a clerk than the leader of the church. You are right it demands a lot courage to endager yourself and your family to save others especially when you have to provide bread to those unregistered Jews,the Germans executed many of those who were cauhgt helping Jews,to the Germans to exterminate the Jews of europe was more important than winning the war,in March 44 the Germans knew that they lost the war,so, they occupied Hungary in order to exterminate the last biggest jewish community in Europe, with the help of the Madiars, in the course of 6 weeks more than 500,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered,The Germans and their helpers commited the greatest crime in human recorded History.

Those taxes were not paid to Rome , but for the german church itself . Eugenio Pacelli was the vatican's representative in germany who signed the concordat with the nazis . This concordat did'nt allow the church to mix herself in the nazi politics . Even at the end of the war , the trains carrying Jews to their death , had a priority over the other ones . Helping or hiding a Jew was NOT punished by death in all the occupied countries . In my birth country certainly not . The priest who was hiding me till we were betrayed , was arrested but returned home unharmed the next day .

I refuse to read all the hate TBs in this thread- but you Eytan- are the worst: your blatant hatred and vile comments are repulsive. I wonder- do you have PERSONAL experience or you are just repeating stories you have heard form people who have also no personal experience. We all know there were crimes commited- do you think Hitler would have spared the Catholics if the Pope had spoken against him? NOT!- Your anti-catholic sentiments in regards of Nazi's is off the mark: almost all of what you call Nazis were protestant- but I don't expect you to understand a difference- in your warped mind anybody who is not Jewish and has not experienced the Holocaust is a nothing. There were many many people who opposed the regime and did their best- it was not good enough- with your vile accusations against the church as an institution and its people you are vilifying millions of good people who helped. I take it as an personal insult against my family who helped countless Jews during the war- clothed them, gave them money, took them to safety- shame on you. I am happy my parents are not here to read your TB-

Yes,the Germans had different policies in the east and the west, they felt culturally close to the occupied countries in the west, therefore they treated them less harsh than in poland,where they executed people for hiding Jews, the Germans despised the poles and the Russians,The Germans regarded the slavs only 1 level above the Jews,and had they won the war they would have exterminated the people of Russia and Poland,in order to create "Lebensrom"for the German Master race,in Germany a few months before the end of the war,the Germans hanged the Priest Bounhofer for smuggling out Jews from Germany to safety,Bounhofer was an important man,thats why they executed him,to send a message,i vonder how many Jews were saved in Germany by Germans ?

Eitan is wrong,the present pope is not a National socialist,but he is not a John Paul the second either,why would this pope wish to make a mediocre man, a saint ?,pope pius had so much power,and didn't use it,he could have called the 23 Million catholics in Germany to demonstrate against the persecution and the killings of the Jews,The German government was not indifferent to the church or to public opinion,the killing of the mentally ill was stopped after an oucry by the church,in Berlin in the cold winter,10,000 christian women demonstated day and night,demanding the release of their Jewish husbands,Gebles the vicious antisemite relented,and released the Jews (who were later rearrested and killed) the pope did nothing to save the Jews of Rome,inspite the urging of the German comander of Rome that the pope use his influence to stop the planed deportaion,the German comander acted not out of goodness,but out of fear that the arrest of the Jews,will antagonize the Italian people and cause a backlash,(which never happened) pope pius did nothing.was it because he was a coward,or an antisemite,or maybe both,to declare this man a saint would be a shame to the church.

Why should Dino object my saying to you: "after all we are not strangers". Should I feel guilty for having sympathy to one "of mine"? I mean one Jew for another. So, I reiterate:After all we are not strangers,because we are both Jews.if that is construed offensive by Dino tough on him.. Change of subject:When I said it was a matter of survival you misunderstood my point. I was referring to the "Jewish traitors mentioned " in your post. There were also the capos who had to do the bidding of the nazis in the concentration camps. The other traitors had to survive and did(I don't call them traitors) they lived to tell the tale to the whole world. During a documentary I heard them speak out,THO' VERY CONTRITE.But they were the WITNESESS to the MASS MURDERS for all world's nations. the to HEAR. p/s My thanks to Brooklyn for reminding Dino how we even care for our enemies in our hospitals,who are neglected by their rich Arab/Muslim brethren.One cannot think of everything when writing in a hurry. Shalom ve la briyut

I told you already : the concordat did NOT allow the church to intervene in nazi germany's politics . The killing of the dement and so continued , but in a more discret way . There were around 4000 Jews hidden in the vatican and vatican's properties [ castel gandolfo was one of those sites ] It was not only a difference between East and West Europe , between Slaves and the other Europeans . This difference in policies regarding the Jews was also related to the kind of people who ruled . When it was the wehrmacht , the occupation seemed "softer" .

There is a ancient law " YOU SHALL NOT KILL"which takes precedence over any concordant,signed for political reasons by both sides,the concordant was signed before Germany vent crazi,and set in motion the death machine that killed millions of innocent human beings,men women,children,just because they were Jews,so,the reason why the pope didn't call catholics and protestants to stop the persecution and the killings of the Jews,was plain legalistics,would any court convict the pope for speaking up and violating the holy concordant,in Germany, a governer of some state removed a relik from a church,there were protests from the people,till the relik was restored to the church,i am avare of the Jews who vere hidden in the vatican,that doesn't justify his inaction on behalf of millions of Jews in Europe.

Just as I thought... now all of a sudden I am an anti semite! JK, this is the type of propaganda people hear every day from uneducated, self centered people such as yourself. By the way... how many millions or Russians were killed during WW2 and how often do we hear about it? Per your comments about Croatia... you have no understanding of the circumstances and motivation for my country at that time wanting to re gain their freedom... so call us what you want! Believe and say anything that you feel will justify your comments because you just don't know! On Friday I read something very interesting about why Jews have been persecuted throughout history. Some of the comments were credible and others seemed out there...my point is I don't fully know if what I read is true just because it is on the internet and written by someone who claims up until very recently they had sympathy for Jews and now, through intense research feels Jews are the root of many evils... I can add the link if you'd like ... soo you have never lived in Croatia, never understood the cultural, religious and territorial boundaries so how the hell could you just babble off garbage you have read to support a Jewish view or British view just to satisfy your petty comments! I do not have to defend my culture and our people... we are one of the greatest nations on earth, with compassion for all and still suffering the affects of communism, something you have no idea about if you have never lived it! If you lived free for 1300 years and then had communism... tell me how your fellow Israelis would enjoy... especially if Egypt were controlling you... would you do anything possible to get your freedom back? Like maybe kill thousand and thousands of Palentinians? Hmmm... it hurts doesn't it? because I know you have reasons for your politics... and so did we, and believe me, Jews lived freely in Croatia before the war pretty much the same as the rest of Europe! and Kate: give me a break... Tito??? when you have more intelligent comments I will respond to you... your comments are completely ignorant... oh and by the way... am I an anti semite if I say that Germans are my brothers? you people just poke and talk crap for you own justification so I am giving you some of it back!

How can you use that term soo loosely? Should I be feeling badly about this allegation? When a group of people use this terrible word soo often it loses its true meaning! I am NOT an anti semite but you sir are shallow minded!

A concordat is an accord between a state and the vatican . They could have broken it , yes . But did they want to break it ? Was it more important for the vatican to hold some "good" relations with nazi germany than to condemn the murder of Jews ? Probably yes . And this even that catholics were also persecuted in germany , in the annexed Polish territories .