Jewish Scene
Jewish group slams Oliver Stone's Hitler remark
Ynetnews
Published: 18.01.10, 07:22
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1. the germans r scape goat not Hitler
ghostq   (01.18.10)
cause the other nation also participate in killing jews, and never stood for trile demjanjuk trile is fine example, he is not German, I think if you look at the facts Russia also should be counted for killing jews after WW2.
2. Stone
mark ,   Israel   (01.18.10)
Why do these guys feel that they have to respond to every inanity sprouted by some jerk who will be forgotten bythe time they throw the last sod on his coffin
3. Oliver Stone is typical of the Hollywood supporters of Obama
Mort ,   Boston MA   (01.18.10)
This why we will defeat Coakley tomorrow and we will take back America
4. It goes back to the Industrial Revolution
C McCoy ,   Canada   (01.18.10)
Antisemitism seeks any and every available hook to hang its hat upon. Not surprisingly, some bright sparks blamed Jewish capitalists for the abuses of the 1800s; ignoring that nonJewish capitalists did the same. The rise of political antisemitism in Germany and Austria goes back to that era. By the time Hitler was born, all major parties had antisemitic planks in their platforms. Hitler didn't really INVENT anything; he merely took what was already happening and took it out to its insanely logical conclusion. Evil, yes; original, no.
5. Hitler scapegoated Jews, maybe he was right !
David ,   La Mesa Calif   (01.18.10)
Hitler blamed Jews for launching Bolshevism that was bringing mass genocide to E. Europe in 1920s; blamed Jews for Germany's defeat in WW I; blamed Jews for corrupting German morals during Weimar; blamed Jews for the ruinous terms of Versailles Treaty which allowed blockades and embargo of Germany in 1920s, bringing starvation and misery to hundreds of thousands. For all of this scapegoating of Jewry, honest historian are investigating whether any substance lay behind the charge. Now, Jews face a day of reckoning from the Oliver Stones of the world, for what Jews have done. Just a decade ago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn did the same settling of scores in his book about the Jews in Russia, Two Hundred Years Together. In 2007 came Ariel Toaff's book about Jewish ritual murder committed for several centuries in Medieval Europe. This process of seeking the truth will continue.
6. Response for David
Richard ,   USA   (01.19.10)
Sir - with all the bad things you write about Jewish people, why do you waste your precious time reading their publications? It is clear from your post, that they are not worth your time, anyway they are to be blamed for everything. By the way, if you decide to post something, at least have the decency to be factually correct. Your 15 lines of post have about the same number of factual errors. Buy a history book and read, before throwing libelous accusations.
7. #5's use of Toaff's discredited book
MPF ,   Vermont, USA   (01.19.10)
#5 cites Toaff's reprehensible and ignorant book which after much criticism, Toaff himself removed from distribution. Here's a summary of the case against Toaff from Wikipedia: The book received a hostile academic reception. Johannes Heil, Professor of the History, Religion and Culture of European Jewry at the University of Heidelberg, said: "The result is appalling: either the book is a result of the utter naïveté of a historian who has hardly ever looked beyond the narrow confines of his academic speciality, the social history of Italian Jewry, or it is a deliberate, deeply cynical attempt to get a hearing for his ideas beyond the narrow circle of specialists." Dr. Amos Luzzatto, former president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, has said, "I would expect a more serious statement than 'it might have been true.'" He also expressed dismay at the sensationalism with which Corriere della Sera, Italy's leading daily, treated the issue. Twelve of Italy's chief rabbis in a press release refuting Toaff's claims declared: "It is totally inappropriate to utilize declarations extorted under torture centuries ago to reconstruct bizarre and devious historical theses." Roman Catholics from the town of Trent, near the Austrian border, commemorated Simonino's "martyrdom" for five centuries, until, in 1965, the Vatican published the Nostra Aetate, which aimed at extirpating antisemitism from Catholic doctrine. The Bishop of Trent signed a decree proclaiming that the blood libel against the city's Jews of that city was unfounded. A preliminary refutation, including interviews with Italian scholars, appeared on 11 February 2007 in the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera. Writing in the same newspaper, Prof. Ronnie Po-chia Hsia states: "There is plenty of evidence to suggest hatred between Jews and Christians, as many scholars have demonstrated regarding the Middle Ages. It is, however, quite a leap of imagination to take testimonies obtained under torture and to construct a hypothetical reality based on unrelated circumstantial facts. It may be true that dried blood or other exotic ingredients were used in popular medicine, Jewish or Gentile - not being an expert on the history of medicine, I remain open-minded on this; but it is sheer blind logic to jump to the conclusion that Jewish groups might have used Christian blood for ritual practices." Kenneth Stow, Professor Emeritus of Jewish History at the University of Haifa, wrote: "To disparage this book is not, as some have suggested, to challenge academic freedom. It is to decry bad historiographical method." According to David Abulafia, Professor of Mediterranean History at the University of Cambridge, "... the significance of blood in Christian culture, and in particular the significance of the Eucharistic sacrifice, is largely ignored as an explanation of the fantasies, for such they were, about Passover rituals, fantasies in which the unleavened bread and wine became explicit negations of the body and blood of Christ. The blood libel has played a particularly nefarious role in the history of anti-Semitism."
8. #5 cites Toaff's discredited book
MPF ,   Vermont, USA   (01.19.10)
#5, either out of ignorance or malice, cites Toaff's discredited book. He's a summary of this piece of trash from wikipedia: The book received a hostile academic reception. Johannes Heil, Professor of the History, Religion and Culture of European Jewry at the University of Heidelberg, said: "The result is appalling: either the book is a result of the utter naïveté of a historian who has hardly ever looked beyond the narrow confines of his academic speciality, the social history of Italian Jewry, or it is a deliberate, deeply cynical attempt to get a hearing for his ideas beyond the narrow circle of specialists." [10] Dr. Amos Luzzatto, former president of the Union of Italian Jewish Communities, has said, "I would expect a more serious statement than 'it might have been true.'" He also expressed dismay at the sensationalism with which Corriere della Sera, Italy's leading daily, treated the issue.[11] Twelve of Italy's chief rabbis in a press release refuting Toaff's claims declared: "It is totally inappropriate to utilize declarations extorted under torture centuries ago to reconstruct bizarre and devious historical theses."[11] Roman Catholics from the town of Trent, near the Austrian border, commemorated Simonino's "martyrdom" for five centuries, until, in 1965, the Vatican published the Nostra Aetate, which aimed at extirpating antisemitism from Catholic doctrine. The Bishop of Trent signed a decree proclaiming that the blood libel against the city's Jews of that city was unfounded. A preliminary refutation, including interviews with Italian scholars, appeared on 11 February 2007 in the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera.[12] Writing in the same newspaper, Prof. Ronnie Po-chia Hsia states: "There is plenty of evidence to suggest hatred between Jews and Christians, as many scholars have demonstrated regarding the Middle Ages. It is, however, quite a leap of imagination to take testimonies obtained under torture and to construct a hypothetical reality based on unrelated circumstantial facts. It may be true that dried blood or other exotic ingredients were used in popular medicine, Jewish or Gentile - not being an expert on the history of medicine, I remain open-minded on this; but it is sheer blind logic to jump to the conclusion that Jewish groups might have used Christian blood for ritual practices."[13] Kenneth Stow, Professor Emeritus of Jewish History at the University of Haifa, wrote: "To disparage this book is not, as some have suggested, to challenge academic freedom. It is to decry bad historiographical method."[14] According to David Abulafia, Professor of Mediterranean History at the University of Cambridge, "... the significance of blood in Christian culture, and in particular the significance of the Eucharistic sacrifice, is largely ignored as an explanation of the fantasies, for such they were, about Passover rituals, fantasies in which the unleavened bread and wine became explicit negations of the body and blood of Christ. The blood libel has played a particularly nefarious role in the history of anti-Semitism."[15]
9. #5 - WRONG: re: Solzhenitsyn and everything else (Toaff?!?!)
L ,   Israel   (01.19.10)
Forget the Toaff thing. That's just obviously ludicrous. Solzhenitsyn, however, "begins his book with a plea for "patient mutual comprehension" on the part of Russians and Russian Jews. The author writes that the book was conceived in the hope of promoting "mutually agreeable and fruitful pathways for the future development of Russian-Jewish relations."" One man's statements, obviously including your preposterous posit, do not create historical fact.
10. to #5 Lenin was Chritian orthodox, he brought
ghostq   (01.19.10)
the comunism. just to let you know, and Karl marx was socialist not communist he was jewish but also german would you blame also Germans for that? mmm I doubt it.
11. Cancer does occur in a context....
Smith ,   TA, Israel   (01.19.10)
and that's why it is studied. If you expose infants to low levels of mercury in their diet they will get cancer when they're older. This does not diminish from the fact cancer is a terrible disease. The logic of the Weinsthal founder is completely logic. Genocide is terrible. But it occurs within a context. By understanding that context we hope we might be able to prevent future genocides. Clearly by the abysmal failure of humanity in preventing new genocides since 1945 clearly we have not developed any understanding of why the Holocaust happened. Too many millions of people have suffered the same terrible fate of the Jews and Poles. Oliver Stone should be commended if he is able to cast some more light on to how an entire nation became culpable in the systematic murder of 10million civilians (Jews and Poles mostly) and the rape of millions more. There is nothing to fear from an investigation. On the contrary to turn Hitler into some kind of superhuman villain is to do humanity a great disservice. He was just a man. And so we must understand how this ordinary man was able to do some extraordinarily terrible things.
12. Smith in TA, wise wise words indeed...
BBSNews ,   Charlotte, NC   (01.19.10)
...a lot of people are deathly afraid of the historical record. It often upsets cherished misconceptions and preciously held ideologies that get shaken to the very core upon learning more and more of what really happened during a given period. We see it often with people in complete denial about the founding of Israel. Your analysis is spot on.
13. Verbal Swastikas, Smokestack Movies
Mea   (01.20.10)
Stone, along with Sean Penn and others have decided they can some how get a lead on diplomacy by flying to Iraq, befriending despots and so forth. Hugo Chavez considers Stone a "close friend". Stone believes he has some sort of insight. What occurs more and more to the common person is that just because someone has funding for a film does not mean they have an academic baseand a healthy mind. Look at Michael Moore along with Stoneand Penn and the rest of this group. They're like the civilians who laughed and dined with the Nazis as the oven smoke billowed above their dining room. THAT will be their legacy too, along with the evidence of their remarks and their movies. Verbal swastikas.
14. Stone
Ronny H.   (01.21.10)
Stone's father was Jewish. If Stone had been in Europe at the time of the Holocaust, he would have been murdered in a concentration camp along with his father's whole family. He's a self-hating part Jew.
15. Oy Vey here we go again!
Dan ,   Boston   (01.24.10)
...lucky his name isn't Mel Gibson or he'd *really* be in trouble.
16. Hitler
Grant MacDonald ,   Toronto, Canada   (01.26.10)
I earned the Getty Oil Company shareholders 4 Billion Bucks On the Reserve acquisition; the way they treat me -- it really sucks! As the Getty inheritors bask in glee; All I asked for was that they look after me. Four billion dollars they earned on Reserve My fee I surely deserve. It turns out J.P. Getty may have been a Nazi; His family even goes back to Germany. With Hitler, Goring & Goebbels he did stand; While trying to undermine the American land! For paintings & artifacts he did receive With his oil he was able to deceive? Hoover & the FBI & Roosevelt they knew That J.P. Getty & espionage he drew! Many a young lad and Jew did die As planes dropped bombs from the sky. For years while Getty sat in Berlin He may have committed many a sin. The ashes and smoke from the chimneys it rose While old man Getty sat cozy; he chose. With artwork held tightly under his arm Still dripping in blood -- as the real owner met harm. Into the ovens & on meat-hooks, bullets between the eyes Listen very carefully you can still hear their cries! While the Gettys sit in England; at their estate at Wormsley And Gordon sings in San Francisco With his 727 in tow. The Getty museum sits atop Malibu While the corpses of World War 2 scream -- J.P. Getty -- We know you! ... GETTYMOVIE
17. Nonsense
Aaron ,   LA, CA   (02.12.10)
This so called "process of seeking the truth" is just a way to verify your anti-semitic beliefs. These "honest historians" try to do the latter, in your opinion, while what you would term "dishonest historians" try to defend Jews from outrageous claims. Conveniently, you fail to mention that Toaff had the book withdrawn since there is no credible claim that the blood libel is true. Get your facts straight. Stop with this BS sir. I think you are scapegoating the Jews. Maybe YOU'RE wrong!
18. Thanks to #6,#7, and #8
Aaron ,   LA, CA   (02.12.10)
I hadn't bothered to read your posts before I sent mine but I'd like to thank you for standing up against moronic historical revisionism. Unfortunately, long discredited opinions surface their way up through the centuries. It seems like this ignoramus has a fetish for people who write ridiculous, anti-semitic trash. "The process of seeking the truth will continue" indeed but hopefully without their or this guy's help.
19. Not sure I understand...
Aaron ,   LA, CA   (02.12.10)
How is prewar Iraq or Venezuela like Nazi Germany? Sure, Hussein was a ruthless thug but he wasn't a Nazi. I've never heard of any concentration camps being set up or any ovens. As far as Chavez goes, he hasn't really killed any one so maybe you just have a thing against leftists? Please use less loaded language in your future posts.
20. Oliver Stone
Deborah Harris ,   Pensacola, Florida,   (08.03.10)
I am a non-jewish, American and Oliver Stone offends me. I suppose there are some people for whom 15 minutes of fame are not enough. Oliver Stone and others make me ashamed to be an American. May The Almighty, forgive us for what we are doing to Israel, by being disrespectful to those who died at the whim of a madman.
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