‘Post-colonial’ disgrace
Gadi Taub
Published: 23.02.10, 11:10
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1. what is more disgusting
iftach huebner   (02.23.10)
is the on going occupation of israel. we should do anything to bring it down, even if we give up on israel as being jewish.
2. find it funny cause people blame others
ghostq   (02.23.10)
for their own oopses, which miss the point of democratic definition, democracy is the toughest form of governing, sure people say freedom this freedom that, but like in real democracy the responsibility is on all civilians which govern themselves and not let anyone or one party to controll them that responsibility is for themselves and their civilians, as long as the majurity govern it self minding the minority consideration but here is the huge catch once the mainority r the one who call the shoots than it's no longer majority, in Israel case left the majority chose surtain gov, but the left wingers take advantege of that saying the other side is ruin democracy while they do the same, today left wingers r minority and more and more violance and incoragment of violance from arabs it's no longer oppostion it's left wing policy Minimar style, this Chunta is smell of war. they r battling the mainstream system. sad to say but they got no other alternative. just finger pointing.
3. Gadi, what is the spade you're talking about?
David ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (02.23.10)
Gadi, Your wasted denouncement is typical of the mainstream media fishing for reasons to call academics a disgrace. Assuming that academics are in touch with reality. But to insult him and his work like this makes you the disgrace. It shows what is really at play here is that you are a right wing brut and you hate people with ideas that do not match your own. Instead of being honest, you come up with this long-winded pile of drivel and claim to have accurately understood the sophistication of this particular academic debate and then give a simple reason why it doesn't work. You are like the kid in school who bullied the other kid for being smarter than him. What next Gadi? Shall we burn all the books written by the 'post-colonial left'? I PUT MY RIGHT ARM UP STRAIGHT AND SHOUT, HAIL BIBI!
4. So Gadi Taub favors the TWO STATE solution???
Isadora ,   Boston, USA   (02.23.10)
Another contribution to the Israeli Catch 22 discourse. One state solution advocates: bad. Two state solution advocates: bad. So what's your answer, Mr. Taub? Do you really think Palestinians will be magically wafted away by the Moshiach, and go Somewhere Else where they won't be a problem anymore, and where you won't complain of growing Muslim power and undermining of US/Canadian/European society?
5. to #3 giggle you r a tad exaggerate
ghostq   (02.23.10)
very emotional, someone touchet a painfull subject I reckon, wow but it is disgrace going against the institute who give you knowledge and finance your studies, if you didn't like the gov go to non political institute like private collage but he is right the academic force is full of left wingers, he knows cause he comes from academic background, he doesn't just fish. and you sound like the ultra orthodox who call everyone natzi, and burning books isn't jewish but burry them will be good idea. :)
6. David #3, Tel Aviv
Steve   (02.23.10)
Mr. Taub wrote: "Professor Shenhav is among the wealthy individuals with international and flexible professions who would be able to get out of here and head to Stanford or Cambridge," should his plan result in bloody savagery and carnage as it surely would. So let me pose a question to you. Would you (David) be willing to be "surety," you and your family, Professor Shenhav and his family, should Shenhav's misguided plan result in bloody savagery? Would Professor Shenhav give his life as surety for his plan were it fully implemented? Would you David be willing to stake your life in behalf of Shenhav's misguided plan? How about the grusome practice of beheading that our neighbors employ for your head David? Your head for the lives of our fellow Jews should this misguided professor's plan turn sour on Israel' Jews? Your life and Shenhav's life for the lives of your fellow Jews, since you are defending this misguided man.
7. Third hand info
Ben ,   CLT   (02.23.10)
This man is basing his opinions of Prof. Shenhav overAsh an interview of his book. Okay, how about READING the book or READING any academic pieces Shenhav wrote like Arab Jews? He is an academic more worthy of Taub's patronization and Euro-centrism for sure. If Shenhav, et al bother him so much, if must mean they're onto something....
8. Poor Gadi
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (02.23.10)
There are two narratives that are logically consistent. The Right-wing narrative which Gadi Taub denigrates is based on the fact that the Jews are a nation whose homeland is Israel, primarily Judea and Samaria. A conclusion is that Israel has the right to rule Judea and Samaria against the Arab colonists who call themselves "Palestinians". The Arab narrative that is contrary to the Koran and historical fact but accepted by "radical Leftists" such as Shenhav is that Judaism is a religion, the biblical Jews are now extinct and that the Arabs are the natives of the Middle East. An inescapable conclusion is that all of Israel is a foreign colonial presence and must be removed to make way for the natives. Gadi Taub, a member of the extreme-Left, believes something irrational and illogical. He accepts the Arab narrative that the Arabs are the natives of Israel, that the Jews are immigrants from foreign countries and declares the Rightist narrative to be racist. At the same time he believes that the cease-fire lines of the 1948 war that define a non-viable Israel are for some reason valid, even though it is the 1948 war that defines the "Palestinians" Gadi Taub and the rest of the extreme-Left cannot maintain their fantasy. They must either support Zionists like Ben-Ari and Lieberman or accept the conclusions of Shenhav and move back to whatever they consider their homeland
9. David, what you calling as a wasted
Lya ,   Modiin   (02.23.10)
denouncement is opinion. It is funny to read when one is canceling other in a same act. That is of course very smart. But hey... that was YOUR opinion, and this over here, is my opinion.
10. post colonial israels
Richard Sherwin, Herzliyah ,   Israel?   (02.23.10)
Thanks for a lovely article. The 'new colonialist' antizionism left likes to play word-games with our lives, a kind of now you see us (unfortunately clearly) now you dont (their main objective), which as you say goes over great in Berkeley, Cambridge, and other universities whose 'cutting-edge' scholars wish our necks on their block.
11. Proffessors
mark ,   canada   (02.23.10)
This guy promotes a foolishness others can only dream about. How can that be. Are proffs like this the only people who have mush for brains?
12. #4 - The present situation is fine - long may it live!
martin ,   Tel Aviv   (02.23.10)
13. I want the 5 minutes of my life back
William ,   Israel   (02.23.10)
this article was contrived and seemed to be written by a journalist student. The counter-point presented by the author was more of a bar-room diatribe than a dissection of Shenhav's position and why it's lacking of legitimacy. I do agree that Shenhav is just another professor taking a stance in order to make a name for himself, rather than forwarding any discussion of peace and xo-existence. I find this among most academics. Mankind usually can't advance until the old-guard of acamdemics die off and the new academics are able to publish papers without threats of being ostracized.
14. :: One State solution - the only way forward
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (02.23.10)
With every passing day the One State solution becomes a greater reality. Israel has rejected the concept of a Two State solution because of the following: a) Israel refuses to remove the illegal settlements in the WB. b) Israel refuses to cede control of Gaza and the WB to the Palestinians. c) Israel insists on retaining the Jordan valley. d) Israel has set preconditions on talks for a Two State solution/Palestinian State which will result in the Palestinians not achieving a fully sovereign state. Thus by default the *only* remaining solution is the One State solution. A One State solution will result in the following: 1) Gaza and the WB will be incorporated into the state of Israel. 2) All Palestinians within Gaza and the WB will be given Israeli citizenship. 3) All Palestinian refugees living in Diaspora will be given the right to return and claim Israeli citizenship. Opponents of the One State solution would do well to remember the following: a) Muslims and Jews are blood cousins descended from Abraham. b) Muslims and Jews have previously lived in peace, with Arabs sheltering and protecting Jews eg: Romans persecution/Jewish expulsion from Spain in the Middle Ages/etc. c) The current ‘status quo’ will only continue to lead to continued military occupation and all out apartheid - a ‘no win’ situation for both sides. Of course under a One State solution this silly religiously racist notion of a ‘Jewish state’ will never exist and the state of Israel will be a multicultural society where all citizens will have equal rights regardless of religion/gender/etc. Hebrew and Arabic will be designated as the official languages of the new state and a new bicameral system will be set up with constitutional provisions to safeguard the rights of all minorities as well a rotating presidency, this will ensure that all social groupings will be safeguarded regardless of their individual population sizes. Most importantly all social and judicial laws and institutions will be governed by the secular government only ie: Religion and State will be separate. Yes a One State solution is the way forward, Jews and Muslims living side by side in peace under one secular state. And to think that it will only take 10 million Palestinians to make ‘Israel’ the ‘light unto all nations’ that it has always aspired to be.
15. :: Revised Arab Peace Initiative
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (02.23.10)
For your reference I include a revised Arab Peace Initiative which is based upon a One State solution: ------------------------------ The Arab Peace Initiative (Amended by Matty Groves) [Insert new preamble] Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council: 1. Requests Israel and the Palestinian Authority reconsider their policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well. 2. Further calls upon Israel and the Palestinian Authority to affirm: I- Full Israeli withdrawal from the following territories occupied since 1967: the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon. II- The incorporation of Gaza and the West Bank into the state of Israel with Israeli citizenship afforded to all citizens residing within these areas. III- Palestinian refugees residing outside Gaza and the West Bank will be afforded the right of return and full Israeli citizenship. IV- Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel and will be administrated equally by Jews and Muslims while the Temple Mount remained under the jurisdiction of an Islamic waqf. 3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following: I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace. 4. Calls upon all Israelis and Palestinians to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity 5. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative. 6. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.
16. Academics forget 2 major things in their analysis
William ,   Israel   (02.23.10)
Granted, their analysis is usually for consumption of other Leftist academics, with the goal of advancing their own tenure rather than the goal of advancing peace. 1) Jews, as a group, have every right to self-determination as any other group on the face of the Earth. To ignore this is to say Jews have no human rights while others do. 2) Having a State with Arabs and Jews together is fine, if they respect each other. "Palestinians" have already stated many times over 61 years that they will NOT accept Jews as rulers, with some even stating they want NO Jews in the area at all. Despite the UN resolutions to end the war, Arabs absolutely denied any attempt to get them to stop aggression against Israel and Jews until they rule the area, in the manner of an Arab State under Sharia Law. #2 - is especially important because while the Leftists yell that a Jewish State is "undemocratic" (despite many Islamic States that exist), the result would be an Arab State with Islamic Laws, which is what Arabs are calling for. How is that democractic?? It's not. It's a farce.
17. The professor is an idiot
Tuvea ,   Chicago USA   (02.23.10)
Does Yehouda Shenhav really think the Palestinians will let his family live in that single state? The good professor would do well to remember the lessons of the Holocaust. They hate him, and his family, ONLY because they are Jewish. His idea that the Palestinians hate him because he is an Israeli is plainly idiotic. The most amazing thing is that the University allows this sort of nonsense to go on. And more than that, it actively ENCOURAGES this weirdness. This helps explain why the reputation of academics worldwide is below that of used car salespeople.
18. Matty Groves ,I like your posts but.....
Sami ,   Lebanon   (02.23.10)
Israeli don’t want either one or two states solution, more correctly they want one state with no Palestinian solution. These entire circle around no sense negotiations have one objects ,make the Arabs give up and surrender at the end and accept the reality on the ground as it is. 15 years since Oslo agreement with many sub agreements that worth a crap with zero outcome.. Israel will give back the territory only if it feel its existence will be threaten if not given it back.Jews want price doubled, tripled… 10 times… etc… as much as they can for any move back. . Only then might accept peace. Till then the status quo will continue to exist, the status of the peace between wars I think the future will show the only country that will force Israel to make peace and concession as paradox is Iran. In Lebanon we know well how Israeli think we have to deal with them and shake their inflated arrogance and obeisances a little.
19. 'steve' ghostq and tuvea from chicago
David ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (02.23.10)
steve, it is a mistake to think that shenhav's idea is somehow worth fighting for. it is a university book for university people, so it will remain in a university. so would 'defend' it, no need, that's a debate for university people. and i think you're a bit nervous about the future, relax, the way things are going, you'll be killing all the left wingers in a civil war, and the arabs will be laughing all the way to the cinema to watch you do it. ghostq, nothing is wrong with criticizing a government that finances a university you belong to. that's called free speech. dafook! if i'm even using the internet how can i be likened to the haredim. step away from the computer and look outside the window kid, you're making yourself ill. tuvea from chicago, don't throw the holocaust card, that's cheap, and it's an insult to the memory of the victims. they (not including their own crazy religious extremists) hate israelis because we keep kicking them and have never stopped. we did it before the holocaust even happened so don't bring that up! we did it before crazy nationalists from chicago like you came here to ruin their lives. none of which requires doing 'because you're jewish'. anyway, happy fishing guys, if it ever becomes more than that i'll be running away to cyprus or somewhere when you start murdering secular and left wing jews in the name of israel because they disagree with you.
20. :: Sami - #18
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (02.23.10)
In my mind far to much attention is given to what Israel wants, I think the world bodies (UN/EU/US/Arab League/etc) are now prepared to move on regardless of ‘what Israel wants’. Not going to happen. Such a ploy may gain the Israelis time but a resolve will be found and implemented. Well if the Israelis keep rejecting peace there may be no other option. In reality the status quo is slowly changing with each and every new illegal settlement and land theft by Israel – slowly but surely a One State solution is becoming irreversible. I agree this is quite possible. I also think it is possible that collectively the Arab and Muslim countries are strong enough to also force Israel to make peace. Like the a$$ kicking they got the last time they ventured into south Lebanon? They will be reluctant to set foot there gain in a hurry. Have those new SAM's arrived yet?
21. Matty Groves
Yaron ,   USA   (02.23.10)
Are you serious? Are you some kind of Islamo-fascist sympathizer? That is the only explanation because you otherwise sound like an IKE with a big mouth. Some fundamental facts you neglect to take into consideration Matty..... 1. Palestinian belligerence is the sole stalemate preventing peace.....ok Matty? 2. It is territory which is disputed and therefore Israel is under no obligation to the Pals as the Jordanians have relinquished their claim.....ok Matty? 3. ANYTHING ISRAEL DOES WILL BE IN ITS NATIONAL INTEREST....ok Matty? 4. No body of nations can impose a settlement you mental midget....no matter how much you would like ok Matty? 4. Once received, those SAMs you speak of will become fodder for Israeli bombs....we can only hope you are there manning the guns....ok Matty? Now, make sure you get a bit educated before demonstrating your ignorance in such an overt way.
22. :: My main goal in life...
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (02.24.10)
is to see Jewish Israel annihilated either violently by Iran or peacefully at the beginning by flooding it with Arabs in One State solution and once this is accomplished Arabs will complete the violent task of getting rid of Jews, in a typical Islamic fashion
23. #21 Yaron
Sami ,   Lebanon   (02.24.10)
Oh yeah the Palestinian are born to be belligent, only Israeli want peace .Where you learned that from? Ovadia Yousef! Disputable territory? I think you miss the terminology here. Occupied territory and it is under UN resolution buddy. Jordanian relinquished their right ? Over what and to whom? to Israel and granted to you the west bank !! where you read that again Sound like Lieberman tongue.… It you consider the generous Saudi peace plan a midget, then my advice keep your foreign passport ready (make sure the Mossad won’t barrow it ) for the future .Ok Yaron.. With people like you there is no future to hope for. Ok Yaron
24. :: Yaron - #21
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (02.24.10)
How do I know if you are the real ‘Yaron - USA’? There are a lot of impostors on these threads nowadays post #22 is an obvious example. How do I know if you really are you and not just another childish fake post by our resident impersonator(s)? I only ask as your comments seem fake and I am not really bothered replying to these bogus posts as they are a waste of time.
25. Annex Judea & Samaria. Pay Arabs to leave.
Chaim ,   Israel   (02.24.10)
Many of Israel's enemies mistakenly believe the One State Solution will result in the Arab takeover of Israel. Let them keep their delusions. In the first place, the Arab population of Judea and Samaria is only a fraction of what the PA claims it is. This has been proven by highly credible American and Israeli studies. Secondly, the massive Jewish settlement of Judea and Samaria will prevent large scale Arab growth in our heartland. Thirdly, Israel need merely pay Arabs to leave. A great many will do so voluntarily. As for our enemies, we will assure they leave whether they like it or not.
26. #22 stole Matty Groves name, obviously
victor   (02.24.10)
27. to #24 matty one state solution will cause
ghostq   (02.24.10)
civil war, and palis had that chance in the 80's befor the first intifada but they missed, no point to erase and rewind, muchlike sekoslovakia and yeguslavia it doesn't work, it is just poor excuse of palis to under mighed jews from their national identity.
28. to #22 peace and arabs don't go hand in hand Akko riots
ghostq   (02.24.10)
prove they still capable of returning to their old ways. no can do. the one state solution set sail long time ago.
29. Victor, Duh. But the technology does not exist to...
BBSNews ,   Charlotte, NC   (02.24.10)
...have users who have a verified email address, and a username, and a password, to be able to post. That does not exist in Israel. The whole world knows about user registration for comments to weed out the impostors, SPAM, and anonymous trolls from cluttering up an already messy debate. In fact I am starting to believe it is illegal in Israel for a Web site to have registration for comments. Maybe Israel is too paranoid for passwords and users. Otherwise what is the point in allowing comment sections in Israel to be a cesspool of anti-Muslim hatred and incitement and dare say a word in favor of a Palestinian you are called an anti-Semite or you and your family is threatened with physical attack?
30. #20 Matty Groves
Sami ,   Lebanon   (02.24.10)
I am convinced, ,Israel wont make peace unless it is forced to do so. The question is who will force Israel to make peace and why it is Iran that is only left to hope on it. US?, The Jews managed to control the US and they are the real rulers over there. They control the media, the financial system and key economical sectors .They have strong lobbies and managed to make from ordinary American just a slave tax payer for Israeli .They are holding American politician from their necks and keep insisting the existence of Israel is America strategic necessity (just a complete screw up for ordinary hard working bad informed American)Wall Street is showing its examples. EU ? Western Europe in need for America and follow its politics .Eastern European new EU countries are American whores running behind the green buck. China ? A politically passive giant thinking how to feed over one billion population and in very need for American technologies and goods market, so follow the robe. Russia ? it is enough for the American to extend for the Russian a small straw ,they hung on it ,forget about the rest and and sign pro America. The S300 arm deal with Iran show another example. So, peace is long away, and unfortunately day by day the extremism is growing . Israeli settlers (I call them the Jewish Taliban ) have growing influence that threaten the Israeli political system, any Israeli PM will have the same faith of Isaac Rubin if a peace agreement will take place. Israel carry a self distraction elements from within. It is a very controversial society with religious extremist settlers and rabbinate extending their influence to the army. As proved after the WWII history the nuclear weapon is the weapon of deterrent and peace. Yes ,it might sound strange ,but the peace we are enjoying now is holding on nuclear weapon. Sooner Iran will have nuclear bomb, sooner will have peace in ME regardless of the all bulsh.t that is going around this subject in the media and Mullahs Fear phobia
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