Mr. Lapid has overlooked the billions of Dollars the Chareidi world bring in to Israel. There are thousands of instritutions that attract millions (maybe even billions) dollars of NEW money from all over the world. Compare that with the secular world that exports its money to be spent all over the world outside of Israel. Then factor in the billions of dfollars that large frum families spend on food, shelter, clothing and transportation. They pay the same VAT taxes as you do just in bigger volume. They buy homes, pay rent and use cell phones. Then lets talk charity vs life style. They live simple lives and give or share beyond proportion to any culture in the world. The bottom line is that the we need to do what ever it takes to hold on to Jewish life so one day you might thank them for being so committed. This is Jewsih Holy land, home to Jews living like jews, not Jews living like Europeans.

Enough of the name calling and recriminations between the secular and the Haredim! Lapid's policy suggestions are a no-brainer. Is it asking too much of any able bodied adult - be they religious or secular - to work for a living? Is it reasonable for the tax paying public to demand some accountability over how its money is used in schools? Grow up people! Somebody has to pay the bills in your country.

Our Torah instructs us to work 6 days a week. If one is not educated for work in our society, how can he/she get a job and be productive? Add some secular education to the Halacha and prepare these kids for the secular and religious world.

There is no hatred in this article, just the anouncement that we won't be able to carry you indefinitely on our shoulders. Most Haredim in the US work, here most don't, why? And BTW, you are not "Yoni from tel Aviv", you are "Mosihe from Bnei Brak, originally from the US" (where you worked!

Whatever you say cannot distract from the fact that for the system to work in the long rund EVERYBODY HAS TO WORK and pay not just VAT, but INCOME TAX, HEALTH TAX, SOCIAL SECURITY. And by the way not waorking doesn't make you Jewish, while we " living like Europeans" are not less Jewish than you!

Yair, I agree, let's talk about this once and for all without anger. We can't continue until we, as a nation, decide the value system we embrace and embody. It is a tremendous pecularity that Israel as a Jewish nation look s elsehwere for value and law system thinking that that our own Torah value system is primitive, outdated, and has nothing of substance to contribute to modern day living. In fact, many Torah values have permeated into the fabric of westen countries transforming them into enlightened nations while the Torah alienated Jew looks on with admiration not realizing that the source of that enlightenment is rooted in good old fashioned Jewish values emenating directly from the Torah. Yair, many of your statements exhibit a tremendous misundstanding of what Torah really says and offers. According to your misunderstanding, it is understandable how you and the camp that identifies with you could feel the way you do. Regarding supporing the "ultra-orthodox", it is also understandable how you feel, as I mentioned. A substantive, satisfying answer cannot be given in this context. However, in response to your proclaimed candid message, I extend an invitation to enter into a dialogue with me for the sake of narrowing the large par existing between us and at the very least, to alleviate some of the animosity. Sincerely, Aryeh

Aryeh: you don't answer the gist of the message. Nobody cares what you do, if you want to be poor and to have your children poorer. If yu don't teach them marketable skills. What we do object is that you expect us to support you. We don't want. If you want to doom your children to poverty, do it, but don't expect a lira or a shekel from others because at the end of the day what you and your family are are parasites, not contributing anything and taking. You don't serve in the army; your sons behave like gigolos, living off the work of their always pregnant wives. Stop wanting to be supported by us.

In the book, "Life is with People" by Zborowski and Herzog, the eastern European shtetl was depicted romantically but, assumiong accuracy, even the rabbis worked at everyday jobs and did their rabbinical work on top of that. Why? Because rabbis needed to know what life was like for his congregation in order to help and counsel them. This is still the case in many shuls in Israel but, just as often, being a rabbi is a fulltime (and lucrative) job. Too often, rabbis do not share in the pains and labours of the people whom they serve. This has become a microcosm of the Charedi communities in Israel which have become enclaves unto themselves with little or no relationship to the greater community (Israel) which they maintain they serve. I think the author, in principle, is right in his opinion piece. I am not sure that Israel can survive the Charedim.

Since you indicate an openness re discussion and appear to agree that there is a problem rather than writing in a defensive manner, would you have the courage to point out what you think is going amiss and the insight to help the rest of us understand? In your post, you seemed to be agreeable but offered nothing.

I am a Haredi with a college diploma--in mathematics which Yair does not know. Yet I have had periods of unemployment, many interviews but no job offers. Yair has never had to look for a job, he has had everything handed to him on a platter because he is from the "elite."

In Israel, a Jewish secular is someone that works fulltime to pay all the bills of the huge Haredi families leaching off welfare paid for by "Jewish Seculars." Does this answer your question?

Shalom Mr. Lapid, Sweden do fund private education.

It does not matter which Mathematical method you are using! http://ow.ly/1FQFW or http://ow.ly/1FQGG !... Math Always wins !!!

Its not the Haradim that have damaged this country....its the suicidal leftist vision of wanting our enemies to create a state that will split Israel which will result in our demise! Did Yael ever serve in the army? He never seems to talk about that!

My dear friend: You are fundementally wrong in many areas. I read your article shortly after Shabbat last night, and it riled me so much that I couldn't formulate a response. I now, thankfully see; that despite the fact that YNet chose to publish your article on Shabbat (probably in order to get a biased talkback), there have since been several thoughtful Jews who have said what I could not. Firstly - although I have only 4 kids; you should be kissing religious Jews feet for keeping the demographics of this country Jewish; with only the likes of you, Yair; the country would cease to be Jewish. Secondly - of course there are more teachers in the hareidi sector - there are more kids! BTW - a hareidi teacher unfortunately earns only half what a secular teacher earns, due to discrimination of funding. Thirdly - all girls learn English in school and the Chinuch Atzmai schools teach boys English as well. (I sent all my boys to a tutor to learn good English). Fourthly - the old kvetch about taxes. Yair - I invite you at any time to see my salary slip - and that of my wife. I assure you we pay our taxes. Hareidi families, like everyone else, even those who don't work, pay taxes every time they visit the supermarket; pay their arnona (property tax); or their national insurance. A TINY (and I mean tiny) proportion of "hareidim" are "satmar" or related chassidut who do not pay national insurance but do not receive any type of benefits, although like you and I, they pay taxes indirectly at the supermarket, gas station, etc. Yair - it's Lag B'Omer today - let's light the bonfire of achdut - togetherness - and build a strong Israel for the future.

Why not just choose to cut off funding completely to: 1) yeshiva elementary/high-schools that student's do not take standardized tests (like the bagrut) 2) or that on average don't achieve greater than 50% on these tests 3) yeshivot that have greater than 10% draft dodgers The power is in the secular s hands and has always been. It's unfortunate that the stupid system of government means that there never is a majority party in the Knesset. Still they could have done it... but every day it gets harder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zw7Kico7Oo&feature=player_embedded#!

Billions of dollars thjat large frum families spend on food , shelter and so on . You wrote . Can you give your sources for those "billions" ? Can you give some exact numbers ? Jerusalem and Bne Brak are the poorest Jewish cities , how is it possible when those charidi inhabitants spend "billions" of dollars ?

then perhaps they would be fewer among all of us. Good that you mentioned what you did but you did not mention that there is a whole other line of rabbinical thought and practice that emphasized work as being necessary for Torah, notably R Hillel, and then we can mention some of those who did that, such as R Yochanan ha Sandlar, the sandalmaker, Resh Lakish the night watchman, many other Tamudic sages rich and poor, Rashi the wine broker, Ramban the physician, Abarbanel the royal official, and so forth. A lot of haredi behavior comes from religious protectiveness which has some real roots. People are led best with love, not fear or anger.

that has four children. These four children were born fourth generation Israelis, with their children, eleven in number, born fifth generation. The four parents all served in elite units and all are very capable of providing for their families. According to my maths that is 15 souls. These fifteen all reside in countries other than Israel, they left not for economical reasons, they left not because they do not like the country of their birth, they left not because they wanted to gain experience of the world. They left because of the deterioration of our society, a deterioration to which the Haredim are major contributers. They simply could not stand this nonsense anymore. Yes it is nonsense as Yair states. It is neither viable nor sustainable. This whole conception as, laid out mathematically and statistically by Yair, will eventually bring about our downfall. I also know a man who is over seventy, he has undying love for Israel, He has walked its pathways for years, he was brought up and nurtured to love and contribute to the State, even if it means self sacrifice. He has two other nationalities by birthright and is in the process of deciding to which of these countries he will go to spend his last years, he cannot stand the anomalous situation here anymore. He contributed to National Insurance all his life, fought for his country but on leaving his pension payments will be stopped because the Haredim need the money more that he does. He will receive a pension from the country he chooses to go to, a country to which he has never contributed a penny since the day he was born. Yair described a situation which is unacceptable to most decent and logical thinking folks. I described the outcome of maintaining such a situation. My decription and Yair's are both from real life, they are not fabricated. It hurts me so much more than it hurts Yair or more than it hurts Gabi Gazit, but not more than it hurts the people I described who have gone and are going, and those who will surely follow. The Haredim are causing a lot of Israelis to think twice about living here. Not our enemies and their missiles, but the Haredim and their stones and their constant hostility to anything and anyone other than themselves.

ani yehudi acshav.

Taxes are high in Israel , yes . Maybe also because we have to support all those charidi people and institutions ? Teachers are not paid as it should be , i agree . But it's the same in many countries worldwide . High salaries paid to others ? It's a normal thing . They bring profit to their societies with their capacities and are , in most cases , worth it .

Wonderful and heartbreaking. And it must stop. Otherwise Iran will look like a progressive country in a few years. However, in Sweden, the government pays 100% of the private schools, who are open to anyone provided they comply with the basic regulations and teach Swedish, English and math.

Rereading post #38, I think my conceptualization was either confused or my writing was. At any rate, I wanted to compare the rabbis who worked for a living and sacrificed and then went on to contribute to their respective communities because of their love for the Jewish people to those who simply made a profession out of being a rabbi. I think the former are/were by far more noble in their undertakings. In the same fashion, I compare those Charedim who intern themselves in Mea Shearim, who may or may not study and pray but never relate to the wider community as compared to those Charedim who do. By and large, it is my view that the Charedim couldn't care less about the larger community. But there are those who do care and they, like the rabbis of old, go out amongst the larger community of Jews be they secular or moderate and serve. While we were being bombarded from Gaza while living in Ashdod, my son-in-law's brother, a Chassid of the Brestlover kind, came to visit us and other Jews and to provide solace. This is the kind of Judaism which begins to make sense to me. On the whole, however, the Chassidim of Jerusalem care only for themselves and probably only for their own factions. They could add so much to the country but refuse.

"Rabbi Moshe Feinstein was the most prominent adjudicator of Jewish law in America's haredi community. In the 1980s, he wrote a letter to the managers of Torah institutions across America and warned them against trying to elicit greater financial support than what the government set aside for them." I'd love to see that letter. Do you have a link to it?

As usual, you make a good deal of sense and give the rest of the poster community much to think about.

Israel will not survive. I have no doubt of this whatsoever. Israel as a self governing and self sustaining independent entity will eventually cease to exist in its present form. Enemies will not contribute to our demise by means of war, these Israel is capable of dealing with. Israel is not capable of dealing with the demographic onslaught of both the Arab population in our midst and the growing Haredi population, the full force of these two factors will be felt in a few years time. It will be too late and as you said "Israel will not survive the Haredim". It is sad, I shall not be here to witness this but I am so sure of this event. The writing is on the wall and I am afraid that even if steps were taken now to counteract this they would have no effect. It is too late.

Once they are old enough to vote, and soon, they will control the knesset. Then the pressure will be on them to do everything, it will be, I think, a better Israel.

Sorry - your story doesn't move me. I see selfish people who are only in it for the "what's for me" (like you describe hareidim) Is the 70 year old who moves to a country to which he has never contributed a penny, and will receive a nice pension, any better than how you describe the "hareidim" who at least have paid taxes, in this country?

He seems to have a chip on his shoulders demonizing the religious. He rarely comments on anything else!