" This is the essence of the tragedy: The power of radical haredim is greater than the power of their rabbis. The street is stronger than its leaders. This creates a situation whereby the Israeli public sees six burned down garbage bins in Jerusalem and ends up hating hundreds of thousands of haredim who never thought of undertaking this kind of vandalistic act. " *** I DONT THINK SO. I DONT BELIEVE THAT THE RABBIS HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE STREETS. THE RABBIS ARE UNHAPPY. MAYBE THEY DONT DIREC TLY SUPPORT THE STREETS BUT INDIRECTLY. *** I believe in discipline. I came from a family which was /is with full discipline. DISCIPLINE IN ANY JEWISH LIFE IS NOT LESS THAN THE DISCIPLINE IN ME. *** why haredim fathers are upset ? *** what haredim fathers are trying to do ? *** CAN HAREDIM DISCIPLINE THIS ISRAEL ?

BUT WHAT WE SEE ? HAREDIM DID FORGET THE G-D. AND SECULARS ARE ATTACKING TO THE HAREDIM IGNORANCE. *** THIS MEANS ; HAREDIM I MEAN THE HAREDIM IS MAKING DOUBLE CRIME. ONE FOR ITSELF TWO FOR SECULARS. *** IF A PEOPLE LOSE ITS RELIGIOUS GUIDES ! THAT PEOPLE GET LOST. BUT FIRST ! RELIGIOUS PEOPLE MUST LEARN AND MUST REMEMBER ABOUT THE G-D. *** you call The God (c.c) as G-d ( hashem ) ITS NOT PROBLEM FOR ME. *** I BELIEVE THERE IS ONE GOD. AND WE ALL BELIEVE IN HIM. NO MATTER WITH WHAT WAY. *** ps: ynet sorry for long comments. all I want to do is to share what I learned from life. you teach me. I share my knowledge with you. maybe I am full wrong. but I AM HONEST WITH MY WORDS. have a nice day. love & respect atilla karagözoğlu

the haredim even cover up for those who become "active" terrorists/criminals... its not "just" looking the other way...

it's a case of condem the crime and ignore the sinner. Until they make an effort to sort themselves out, they will and forever be regarded as the bane of Israeli society - the leeches and the lazy. The government is playing a dangerous game by ignoring their behavour and not treating it with a zero tolerance attitude.

The crazies always win, because they have the zeal and the conviction of a mad man,and those crazies have a lot of energy and will not rest till they reach their goal, by any means,because it's for the good of the people,the fanatics caused the destruction of the first Temple,second Temple, and to a comlete end to Jewish autonomy under Rome, by the zealot Bar Kochba,the Roman reaction was so harsh that they changed the name of the country from Judea to Palestina,and made the country a province of Syria,the Haredi Rabbis are responsible,because they don't excommunicate the hoodlums,so,is the governement,who is seeing the Haredim as the keepers of the flame,but they are not keepers of the flame,but starters of fire.

Insert any of the above names in the article. The weak majority is mislead by Thugs.

They are problem number one in Israeli society today and getting bigger by the minute. They will be the ruin of our Nation and they shall be recorded in history as those who brought down "The Third Temple". There shall be no "gathering of the exiles" next time around. We shall end up in the history books in the great halls of learning such as Harvard and Yale, just as Babylon and Assyria and Rome and Greece did. We deserve it because we have let them multiply and let them do as they please.

logical and accords with my own experience of the Charideem, it is reassuring to hear it from you. I understan, incidentally, and as one poster has already suggested, the same holds true in the Palestinian camp (Westbank) where most of the Arab people just want to get on with life, make a living, have peaceful relations, but a segment of the leadership (Hamas) keeps creating friction. And I would say the same holds true of our settlers, most of whom would like to have peaceful coexistence with their Arab neighbours but a faction of young zealots keeps igniting the situation. Maybe this is how we are drawn into severe scuffles and wars. As to the Charideem, I do think our government must isolate those responsible for the continual breaches of the law. I think I can point to the Edah Charedit as the most undisguised fanatical element. Getting rid of them should not be an overwhelmingly difficult problem if they possess citizenship in another country, i.e., USA, and not in Israel. They could then be labelled "Pesonae non Gratae". International law is not an area of expertise, however. Can any posters assist with this propositions by explaining why or why not it is not possible?

This article makes it sound like the problem is with the law abiding Hareidim. The problem is with the media that takes every opportunity to belittle and besmirch the best people the country has to offer. Hareidim are at the forefront of philanthropy in body and with their pockets - they have stable families and promote family values. If the media would just take the trouble to determine the facts it would be clear that blaming the Hareidim for the radicals is like blaming secular society for the radical leftists, violence in the schools, drugs, rape and all that is bad in the country. Instead of all the comments filled with misinformation and perhaps some stereotype bigotry, lets create an attitude of reconciliation and understanding and find ways of uniting the country.

The answer to your question Sir, is very simple. Of course it is possible to depose lawbreakers in a country in which they have residence but not citizenship, it is a very simple process. Of course there would be a legal challenge which would hold things up for some time but if an actual deportation were to take place then the riots and pillage would be tenfold if not more. The authorities are dead scared of these people, they have power and they have money. They have political leverage and they have "God" on their side, which means that they will never give up.

although I'm not so sure the eidah is the problem, as there are "normal" chareidim in that sector too - though some extremists as well, and the neturei karta are the main instigators (neturei are not to be confused with eidah - n.k are the lunatics who flew to iran to give support (kiss ...) to ahmenidejad) - the answer to your question is that most eidah members, and neturei karta, their families were in israel before the state was "born" and not only do they most definitely not hold dual citizenship, they (and some more moderate haredim who have lived here for centuries and don't have relatives elsewhere) hold that it is prohibited for them to step foot in the holy land...! But as you seem to be logical and with good ideas, I'd be curious to hear your next one... As with any lunatics or retards, training won't work because logic doesn't speak to the few (compared to the group they belong to) extremists who don't want to listen; this is also why rabbis who DO have a "handle" on their community and most listen to them, don't get thru to these lunatics as they don't want to listen... maybe those few need some kind of rehabilitation home - though if it's run by seculars it will just prompt their cronies and friends to rally more and cause more fires etc - I think they need to make one run by true moderate chareidim that "look like them" & could show them with torah sources why what they are doing is wrong and how to accomplish hafganot, etc without violence, and what the torah says about these things...(and chillul hashem etc!)

So most Heradim don't support the lunatic fringe? Who cares. Most Germans weren't Nazis and most Palestinians don't want to wipe us out either. However, people who are willing to be passively led by the lunatic fringe become part of it whatever their true beliefs.

There exists a group of radicals in the Meah Sharim area who engineer most protests there. The police are afraid to start up with them because they know that they can not arrest all of them, and those who are left to roam, will ignite a riot, which the police fear. It is not the orthodox who are captive to radicals but rather the PRESS AND POLICE!! The Haredim live and breathe knowing that the police are really powerless to do anything. But Haredim have no fear from them.

for taking a crack at responding to my question. From a psychology point of view, "ain od milvado", there is really no possibility of reform or even significant change vis a vis the Neturei Karta members or those amongst the Edah Charedit faction which continually break laws and are becoming more aggressive in doing so. People with personality disorders are notoriously hard to change in clinical settings and your idea of coupling them with other Charidem for treatment just won't work because they are not capable of insight. In criminal cases, the only thing that does work with personality disordered delinquents is incarceration. Such people don't change and they always blame their criminal activities on others but imprisonment is a means of keeping them from damaging public property and from taking the law into their own hands.

These haredim don't think for themselves. They are motivated by their rabbis. The fault lies with the rabbis and the heads of the yeshivas. If the leaders of the haredi communities would speak out and condemn such behavior in strong terms their followers would stop doing it.

It is very important that the rule of law be maintained in society. People who destroy public property and behave as hoodlums must be arrested by the police and put on trial in a court of law.

y they do nothing to stop it, where is thecommunity responsibility, they got non, as long as they say it's not me, it's them they get ride of the responsibility, they r as guilty as those extreme, cause when you see someone that about to make a crime and don't stop him you r becoming assosiate. simple no need to over analize it.

Not only do you criticize charedim 24/7 (including shabbat) now you want the actualy charedim to help you to criticize them? Funny, but it won't work. there is nothing extreme in segregating gender, in rejecting western education with its hedonistic values, and fighting for our cause in the only language the government understands: strength.

Sounds to me like the old joke about lawyers: 99% give all the rest a bad name. But here it is no joke.

Many of the tbers clearly aren't in very close working and daily contact with many khareidim. Anyone who works in the medical services will likely attest MANY instances in which khareidim weren't "allowed" to make the most basic decisions--like refusing to see a medical specialist, after having been referred by a doctor--even urgently in many cases, without first obtaining an ishur from their rabbi. There are countless similar examples where khareidim are unable to make even the most basic decisions about their life because their rabbis have invaded into the most detailed and minute areas of their lives. Khareidim simply cannot think and do any differently than their community--and if they're not sure what that is, they cannot guess; they must ask their rabbi and follow his directive. So how is it amazing that khareidim follow their rabbi's directives, what the rest of the kharedi community is doing and offer no opposition to the rabbis' directives? Anyone who thinks these rabbis are going to forfeit their influence, power and prestige to encourage the khareidim rank and file to regain their ha-Sheim-bestowed free will has lost their mind and should go look for it. The only answer is educating the rank and file khareidim... and now you know why education is so threatening toi khareidi rabbis and such an inflammatory topic in the khareidi community--and why it is so imperative. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (& Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jews)

anarchist.

quote: "The power of radical haredim is greater than the power of their rabbis." The non-radical haredim seem unable to control their more radical brethren. Fine. It's Israel's job to ensure *all* it's citizens are safe and not subject to mob rule. It would be great if the rabbis could control the radicals, but it's more Israel's job. Have mega-police presence at all riots and all protests that could turn into riots. Use the water guns, tear gas, canine units, etc.. Pull out all the stops. Have some police assigned to take videos at the scene from all angles. Zoom in on faces, etc.. Catch people in the act. The next riot, even if it's 'only' throwing stones - arrest stone throwers and all their helpers. To make it easy - Throw all who show up in the riot area in jail and sort it out later. - Use the video pictures to help identify the troublemakers. Keep troublemakers in jail until their court appearance.

Andy Kutnofsky likes to think that there is no such thing as a haredi riot. In fact, somebody else must have burnt all those publicly owned garbage cans. Somebody else must have attacked the policeman and stolen his sidebag. An aveira by a haredi? Impossible, says Kutnofsky. Baloney. And I mean real treif baloney this time. Haredim are just like the rest of us human beings: they have hooligans, thieves, drug users and child rapists. They have their percentage of wife beaters and cheaters. And in this case, they have a bunch of hooligan organizers like the soccer hooligans in Europe. Get off it, Kutnofsky, haredim have been rioting in Jerusalem for years. They break the law. They attack fellow Jews. And of course it is a small minority, that's what the media was reporting. The problem is people like you, who try to pretend that there are no problems and that somebody else is to blame for haredi problems. Grow up. The real culprits are the rabbis who allow the hooligans to run wild. The real culprits are the greedy rabbis who decided decades ago that "parnasa" for haredim meant that everybody suddenly became a talmid chacham, and everybody would make parnasa from the tax money of other Jews who made real parnasa and pay taxes on it. And the big winners of that scam, of course, were the rabbis at the top - the political party leaders and the managers of the big yeshivas, who got a percentage of that money for every "talmid chacham" in their kollel. Thus, instead of kollels having the best and brightest Torah scholars, every shmendrick is now a chacham, and other Jews pay for his livlihood. Thus, any hooligan has no responsibility when he organizes or takes part in a riot. He won't get fired for not showing up at work. He won't get fired for getting a criminal conviction for destroying public property or attacking Jewish policemen when he should have been in the kollel "working". And the rabbis in charge? Their smiling... all the way to the bank.

#7, I agree. I would also add political Christian Evangelicals in America to your list. George W. Bush achieved the presidency 10 years ago because so many Americans could identify with his Alter Call experience. This experience is a rite-of-passage in evangelical churches, whereby one goes up in front of a church congregation and accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. A very public ceremony of sealing one's pact with Jesus, if you will. The key point to me is that those Christians (or secular people who have a Christian background) to whom this ceremony is an alien concept ALSO feel compelled to romanticize it. Never mind the fact they are romanticizing a culture that excused slavery in the American South for about 400 years by invoking the Christian New Testament ... such to them is unfortunate "collateral damage" on the crusade to a romantic ideal. Such people may live in the more modern, pluralistic cities of the USA where greater personal differences are tolerated, but they will actually romanticize life in the Bible Belt, where conformity and less freedom of expression are the rule. I think this romanticizing could be either conscious or unconscious. I believe Muslim moderates similarly romanticize the extremists in their midst, which gives such extremists staying power in their culture. I think the moderates in such Muslim cultures romanticize their extremists, though such moderates may also vehemently disagree with the extremists' political and religious beliefs. I also believe moderate Israelis romanticize the extremist ultra-orthodox in Israel. I think it's a love-hate relationship - seculars love to hate the ultra-Orthodox extremists and vice versa. As others here have said, the extremists win because their voices are louder and more zealous. How to resolve the dilemma? Take the advice from Indiana Jones' father at the end of the movie "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade": let go of the Holy Grail, Indy, let it go!

this article is the best yet in view of the present situation... nonetheless, my oldest son is in a hareidi yeshiva in Israel that is almost totally ashkenazi. i have wonderful friends and friends of relatives who have become ba'al teshuva, and i was shocked to learn that my son's rabbeim recommended he not attend a shabbat meal at a friend's home in israel ... because they go by a 'sepharad' heckshur... which my son's hareidi rabbeim felt was less stringent in kashrus... there has to be some sort of compromise... i felt terribly ashamed at the hurt my friends felt by this 'holier than thou' incident regarding kashrus ,,, i was told that there is a special place in gehenom (G-d forbid) for Jews who create maklokos among Jews... and possibly also for Jews who don't intervene to prevent or repair the maklokos that already have been created..... there has to be a committee to oversee halacha that will be acceptable to and inclusive of everyone in Israel .... maybe these current events will be the beginning of the urgency for that...