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Knesset committee approves conversion bill
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 12.07.10, 12:38
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1. This is the begining of the end to enlightment in Israel.
Steve ,   Tel Aviv   (07.12.10)
The Rabbinate is the evil empire and darkness that spreads over our country. We need to encourage all expressions of our tradition and Jewish values be they reform, conservative, progressive, renewal or secular traditionalists. G-d help us from ourselves.
2. Complete stupidity!!
Why do they need to vote such a law? Why do they not keep it like it always was?? A jew is a jew. Separating into groups is the worst thing ever. Reform, Othrodox, conservative and so on are one group: united and jewish. This law is a SHAME. if my future wife who is supposed to convert soon not under orthodox judaism (so that I can marry her) will be rejected in Israel, what will I do? not come to Israel anymore???????????? I feel myself extremy "jewish", this is really horrible.
3. Taliban rabbis
S. Michael ,   Carversville, USA   (07.12.10)
These rabbis do not want a religion that is compatible with the real world. They betray their forebears. Rabbis used to hold jobs: they were physicians, shoemakers, vintners and in general men who produced values before contemplating the spiritual at the end of the day. The Haredi think the rest of the world is made to serve them: to make their appliances and cars, generate their electricity, build their homes, and make their clothes. The rabbis egos are creating a lazy, stupid and sycophantic following that will burden and soon drown Israel and the Jews if they are not stopped now.
4. Anyone against strict conversion policy: NUTS!!
iObserver and News ,   USA   (07.12.10)
What is Judaism? A boys and girls club!? NO! It's a religion! It has requirements like any other religion! Why the heck should it be a 'social' issue! The liberals wanted to flee from Judaism so they invented a 'religion' of their own! They have NO say in the matter! They made their own club, defied the principles of Judaism...who are they to comment or oppose authentic Judaism!? They already did that and like hypocrites, they're looking for approval from the very people they spurned and defied? Absurd! Judaism is Judaism: it has principles and practices that are necesarry to follow. It's THAT simple! If you can't get a proper conversion, then find another religion! It's like volunteering for the infantry but refusing to carry a weapon or defend your land and commrades. Just plain STUPID! The bill isn't tough enough in my opinion!
5. So what is the problem, just give the rabbi money
Oren ,   Or Yehuda   (07.12.10)
6. The most cultic farce is that which holds Hebrews captive
Josh   (07.12.10)
Torah does not provide for compromise on dwellers in the land to forced to remain pagan and prevented from doing Torah and loving our G-d. They are blocking all the doors and holding all the keys to a possible great nation under choose-life and they are closing those doors and creating enemies and chose death where none wants to exist. When asked they "say never again"but their actions say bring it back on the heals of our racism. When will Jews stop living like refugees? When the extremist cult leaders stop scaring Israal into a closed society box where they can pump non-torah into the minds of our people. We have found our boogy man and it is not the goyim nor the convert.
7. Judaism must be preserved.
Keren ,   IL-BR   (07.12.10)
Look at the grave mistake some rabbis did in cases as the Paq rook 16 and Josh -the mad. We can not afford such mistakes. I think the future must be corrected, but also the past. If we do not accept reform converts,we should ,by the same token,correct cases done even by mistaken orthodox rabbis. Only true converts,sincere converts,converts like Ruth can join our people.Others must be refused and mistakes must be corrected. If US Jews complain,let them complain.Doing what is right to preserve our tiny and precious People is what counts. Political correctness is good for politics.In relation to our People,no concessions must be done in the name of political temporal bs. It was not easy to come back to Israel after 2000 years.It is our obligation to preserve it ,for this and all future generations,and we must kick out from our midst people that are trying to repeat what had been our disgrace before,namely these obsessed missionaries trying to blot and weaken our own in the name of their farse. KICK OUT FAKE JEWS FROM OUR MIDST!! Do not do more mistakes in Israel.Enough!Enough!
8. #6 well said
rachel ,   usa   (07.12.10)
9. Israel, Democracy or Theocracy? Time to choose!
David Turner ,   Richmond, USA   (07.12.10)
The Knesset Constitution and Law Committee seems hell-bent to turn Israel into a 21st century shtetl. Several years ago, under leadership of an orthodox MK, it attempted to put in place a constitution, a *present* to the Jewish state on its 60th birthday, with a dramatically watered-down Law of Return/Grandparent Clause. Two weeks ago a liberal Hebrew University law professor proposed on an on-line Israeli publication that automatic citizenship for Jewish olim be eliminated. Another proposal to eliminate the Law and its Clause. And now the same Constitution and Law Committee, this time under secular party leadership would provide the Chief Rabbinate veto over Who is a Jew. Because this is precisely the issue behind the conversion bill, whether or not all Jews, regardless of denomination or belief, are fit to live in Israel. Israel is at a crossroads: we of the Diaspora created a state for the Jews, all Jews, even Jews who don’t accept all Jews. Even Jews who oppose a state for the Jews. Israel can build on the universal and secular foundation we built into its creation, or can turn her back on the Diaspora. This bill is not just a matter of political expediency, but of national identity.
10. 6 Where does Torah require conversion?
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.12.10)
Torah requires that you do your utmost to keep Torah according to halakhah in order to love ha-Sheim, but Torah nowhere requires that you convert in order to do your utmost to keep Torah according to halakhah! Non-Jewish geirim are fine. Is a Goy Qadosh less important than a Mamlekhet Kohanim (Shemot 19.6)? While the Orthodox Beit Din determines halakhah, there is a clear distinction between halakhah and rabbinic dictate. While you must observe halakhah in order to keep Torah, you should not be locked you in to servitude to the dictates of any rabbi or group of rabbis. The Rambam corroborated that Logic is the overriding authority for determining halakhah. "And indeed the devarim of a single [person] or of many - for sometimes the halakhah will be as the single, meaning to teach you, that if there is a clear conjecture even from a single [person] - he is to be heard, and even if the many disagree with him." "The logic of these things is clear: when it's about discovering the truth - small and great is the same. Also a small student can refute the sayings of a great rav, if he has found proof to what he's saying. In objective science, it is not the authority that determines, rather the "evidence that has been discovered and the reason that has been known" "And since all these things are by clear evidence, that do not have a fault in them, and a person cannot ponder over them -- there is no concern for the composer, whether they were composed by Neviyim or whether they were composed by goyim: for everything that its reason has been discovered, and it's truth was known by evidence that do not have a fault -- the person who said or taught it should not be counted on; rather on the evidence that was discovered, and the reason that has been known." "Everyone who sets his heart to occupy himself with Torah and not do melakhah, and to make a living from charity - he has done khilul ha-Sheim, disgraced the Torah, turned out the light of the religion, caused evil to himself, and removed his life from olam ha-ba: because it is forbidden to enjoy in things [i.e., on someone else's dime] of Torah in this world." "Love the melakhah and eschew the Rabbinate. Every Torah thing that does not have melakhah with it is doomed to be for nothing, and the end of this person is to rob society." (All quotes from the Rambam.) Learn and implement logical halakhah and be rewarded and happy. What does Scripture say ha-Sheim requires of you? (Mikhah 6.8). The rabbis err. I don't hesitate to point that out whenever appropriate. But irresponsible name-calling--"cultic farce"--is simple leshon ha-ra and motzi Sheim ra. I know we all see it running amok, but they are atheists, homosexuals and Torah-ignorant liars, slanderers and hate-mongers who are not keeping Torah. Don't swim in the sewage. Those who do become acclimated (assimilated) and indistinguishable from the rest of the sewage. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer (Teimani, Baladi, Dor Daim, Orthodox Jew) Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)
11. #2
Harry ,   Jerusalem   (07.12.10)
There we go again. The "FEEL" religion. Judaism is not how you feel. Judaism is not an "all expressions" religion as #1 thinks. Start your own religion and let us continue to live according to the Torah. We have been around for thousands of years, fighting your water down way. Any excuse to smash religious people has become a way of life. I don't want my grandson or granddaughter to marry some "feel" good person who thinks he or she is Jewish, because some Reform or Conservative or Humanistic person signed a piece of paper saying he or she is Jewish. I bet if you needed brain surgery, would you have a problem if I told you I am a certified M.D. that took courses from a water downed reform DR school. I feel like a good DR.
12. "considered second class Jews"
Harry ,   Jerusalem   (07.12.10)
Why second class Jews? No Jew is second class if they are really Jewish. When will you people understand that you can't wholesale Judaism. Without authentic Judaism, the Jewish people would have disappeared centuries ago. GIVE IT UP. Why do you need recognition? Why not promote REAL JUDAISM. You people obvious do not believe that the Torah is God given. Where does it say in the Torah that Judaism has streams or branches. That is man made.
13. Agree on strict conversion policy disagree on monopoly
JO   (07.12.10)
of the rabbinate. The rabbinate has shown themselves to be power hungry rabbits that want to control all Jews. They would have a convert 's life checked like big brother ( ten years after the event) and have too many rival factions to muster.They exclude other Jews who do not agree with them but take generous allowances. I agree to strict rules to conversion, it is no problem but such rules must be overseen by more than just an monopoly of rabbis. They already make it hell for many Jews( 100% kosher ones to boot)
14. #10The imcomprehensible bla bla bla of an unclever goy
Keren ,   IL-BR   (07.12.10)
Paq rook 16,what you say is imcomprehensible to Jews. You speak out idiocies after idiocies. Get out fool! Get out to your baptist church.There ,they may understand your bs!Here,we don´t! Your bla bla bla does not belong to us! Get out putz!
15. Idiot Paq rook 16 #10
Keren ,   IL-BR   (07.12.10)
"TORAH REQUIRES that you do your utmost to keep Torah according to halakhah in order to love ha-Sheim, but Torah nowhere requires that you convert in order to do your utmost to keep Torah according to halakhah! " You are indeed a breaking wind,Paq rook! From where,anywhere, did you get this,putz? Quote from where did you get more one crappy bead to add to your stinky necklace?uh? Do you think,forlorn one,that what your sick head produces is sacred by any means?You are wrong if you think so. Your mind produces only stinky beads that only you wear,nobody else. Wake up,hapless one!And get out to your church where they might hear your imbecilities!
16. To 10 , you are worry for your FAKE conversion !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.12.10)
But you can't answer my simple questions , you the GREATEST slanderer in the world and around it . I'm not slandering you when i say that you are a deceiving [ heading ! ] LIAR [ blessings ! ] And nowe we see a yeshu adorer [ you ] fighting a cross lover [ this josh ] .
17. Jo , 13 . The Rabbinate does'nt check enough
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.12.10)
Because we see the results on this site . Two pseudo "converts" , one preaching his yeshu [ this Mr van ...AKA paqid ] , the second his cross [ this guy called josh ] .
18. Keren, you shiksa, move to Israel and then preach!
John ,   Europe   (07.12.10)
You and your weekend-Jews who plunder in America and show themselves as big datim are and will be to blame when Israel weakens enough for Arabs to smash it! Get in your hole and do not come out!
19. #18 Jonh,join Netzarim and all nuts.Here is Israel.
Keren ,   IL-BR   (07.12.10)
I have already moved to Israel,if you don´t know. Why so revolted,Jonh?Are you another frustraded goy willing to replace Jews,or what? I am writting in a Jewish site in Israel where I belong and I indeed can not stand with people willing to preach their god in our midst. Don´t you agree?Go to a site where you feel more confortable. Join hands with Pacross and Josh cross and * get out* !
20. Destroying Israel From Within
Panda Bear ,   Omaha, Nebraska   (07.12.10)
It appears to me that this type of debate and hatred among one's fellow Jew is what contributed to the destruction of the Second Temple. What are all the holier than thou Jews who want to deny someone their place as a Jew going to do when G-d calls all the Jews back to the land of Israel? Are they going to argue with G-d and tell HaShem that they need to convert first? And how many Jews in the whole world are really out there doing what G-d wanted them to do as a Jew? Where is the light in the world? Where is the unity amongst Jews? Where is the love? I was in Israel before, where was all the holiness? Were the Torah abiding Jews hiding it in an underground bunker? It appears to me that a majority of Torah abiding Jews are more interested in keeping the darkness of the world from their doorstep instead of bringing light into the darkness. And I would be very careful about labeling someone as not being Jewish enough to be a real Jew. It would be like telling them they are not loving G-d correctly and, therefore, they cannot have any part of G-d. But Jewish infighting and Jew against Jew destroyed a Temple, so why not let it destroy the whole land of Israel now as well. Cut your nose off to spite your face. Make it so hard to be a Jew that the whole Jewish people disappear from the face of the earth. Place even more restrictions and commandments on the converts than even G-d, Himself imposes. LET THE SELF-RIGHTEOUS RULE! And don't forget to keep your light hidden from the world. As long as you are going to keep people from being Jewish, you might as well do that, too. Wouldn't want some non-Jew becoming enlightened, afterall, and then maybe the world become a better place for all.
21. This is Sad. But the Orthodox should not act so Holy.
ELI ,   United States   (07.13.10)
I believe in strict conversion laws for the sake of keeping the purity of the faith. But this article makes no mention of how the orthodox cannot agree amongst themselves for which Rabbi is really orthodox or who has the true interpretation of the law. I.E. Rabbi Druckman scandal. This is when they wanted to cancel THOUSANDS OF ORTHODOX CONVERSIONS! ORTHODOX NOT REFORMED OR CONSERVATIVE> If you think this legislation will change the arguments, just look at the levels of glatt kosher meat. And the different opinions of which is truly Glatt.
22. Convertion
Yehudi ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.13.10)
If a non-Jew wishes to become Jewish they are welcome. But they must understand that that to be a Jew one is required to accept the Laws of the Torah. The Rabbis are the true guardians of the Torah and therefore only they are qualified to determine if a non-Jew meets the criteria for conversion.
23. Disgusting!
Charly ,   UK   (07.13.10)
I for one cannot believe what i have just read!? The Knesset/Commitee is considering taking the the first law and tearing it up!? Does israel really wish to spit on the few who protect her? Who do you think protected Israel from the flotilla, reminded people why Israel was forced to carry out cast lead? and now they wish to take away their right to return? thats just sick! If israel permits this, we will truly see con/ref/prog Jews simply turn their backs comletely (i wouldn't be suprised) i know many of them! and they converted because of their love for Israel. If this does go ahead, maybe Israel will actually cut itself off from its own people. A Sad day
24. John 18 , shut up , you are NOT in Israel
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.13.10)
And have no right to tell someone to move to Israel , as you are abroad by yourself
25. It's all the Conservative & Reforms Faults! When Isreal ...
printed in the Israeli IDs the date of birth in Georgian rather then in Hebrew as it usually does to Israeli Jewish Born, and by that Marked us differently then other and No Loud & Harsh Voice came out , right then & there, then it's Our Leaders Faults!!! I can see Israel's thinking "we'll pass this law & then after a short period of the American Jews get upset with us, we'll get peacefully again"! Well, We MUST MAKE A REAL POINT AND NEXT US ELECTION VOTE DEMOCRATS FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA AND ASK HIM TO INSIST ON PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND JUST ONLY THEN TO THINK ABOUT MAKING UP WITH THE KHUMENIST GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL!
26. # 10 Paqid the so called converted jew
Avi ,   Israel   (07.13.10)
Maybe this law is good as it will prevent such people as Paqid who somehow managed to convince some Rabbi to so called "convert" him and since then has gone on to establish a center for Jews for Jesus and incites hatred towards secular jews who he considers not religious enough according to his so called standard on a daily basis.
27. Don't discriminate against halachic converts
Gila ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.13.10)
When someone "converts" under the auspices of the Reform or Conservative, while their connection to things Jewish and feelings need to be respected, the cold reality is that they are no more Jewish than before. True conversion according to halacha is a deeply spiritual process and usually involves a great deal of unimaginable suffering and agony along the way; you really do receive a new soul from Hashem at the mikvah. That said, a convert is a Jew in every way and to discriminate against a convert by preventing him or her from making aliyah is not only completely contrary to halacha - we are told time and again in the Torah to love the convert and not oppress him or her - but inhuman. A true convert is in essence Jewish already, and once awakened has an essential need to convert to become whole, if in Israel has often used up savings and struggled financially simply to survive if he or she has no legal right to make aliyah before their conversion, and has every desire and need to come home to Israel just like any other Jew.
28. Gila 27
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.13.10)
Halachic converts are converts , nothing more . To become Jews there are some generations needed . I will compare it to an immigrant in the USA who becomes US citizen after some years . Will he/she change his/her foods habits ? will he know something about base ball , american football , US culture ? He will still eat his rice if he comes from , let's say , China , Will still talk his native tongue , etc etc . The same with a convert , you can't make him a Jew , you can't give him Grand parents buried in a Jewish cemetery . Will he say kaddish for his non Jewish parents ? will he see his nephews making Bar Mitzwa ? A new soul from Hashem ? don't exagerate . His soul is still non Jewish , as are his reactions to daily life problems and discussions . I'm not talking here about those FAKE converts of course , they are alweays goyim .
29. Anyone Who Is Eligible For Anti-Semitism
Jethro ,   Marquette, MI   (07.13.10)
Anyone Who Is Eligible For Anti-Semitism is jewish. The Ultra-Orthodox can deside all the rules they want, but that doesn't change. when a converted jewish person gets harrassed for being jewish, it is all in the name of Israel. Think about it.
30. Why the uproar?
Jay ,   USA   (07.13.10)
Those who actually practice Judaism should have the right to determine whether someone has had a kosher conversion. It's pretty simple.
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