Jewish Scene
Only in Israel: Torah-only education
Amir Shoan
Published: 22.07.10, 14:29
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1. Article admitting to a problem and contributing to it.
Josh   (07.22.10)
People of One Book. What a line of delusion. Oral torah is neither oral no Torah. It is written in many many many books which all violate devarim 4:2 as well as virtually every paragraph of the book of Devarim. "Judaism's great spiritual thinkers" Are these the ones who will go over the ocean to get Torah for us so that we can hear it and do it? What is "great" about their additions to our spirituallity and is that great addition for good or for evil according to Torah? If you remove the mind-funk or cultic words like "great" that grandstand and remove the treats of death and chrerim which a a true sign of cultic rather than truthful protection, what do you really have? Who is so afraid of being found out as a fraud as a man who will kill to sillence criticism? Hitler learned on thing from his abuse? Brown shirts can be made everyday of the week. A false picture of Torah and pronunciation of greatness? Men in 1800s theathre dress doing weird things to women and family is the source of our pool of "greatness"? Can I speak out and people not panic or fear for my well being? If the answer is no, then we live in a cult prison. Enjoy the cage beause we are not going anywhere is you buy into the idea greatness is a label and not a status seen only through true wisdom. Illegally adding to Torah is the surest sign that there is no wisdom in this label and no authority in their voice. Rather it is clear a criminal is our king who has no clothes.
2. #1 Josh maybe Jesus loves you but we dont
Avi ,   Israel   (07.22.10)
You are not Jewish and we dont need your advise thankyou very much.
3. Again you # 1 the cross adorer !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.22.10)
4. It goes both ways
Jake in Jerusalem ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (07.22.10)
While it is true that Hareidim in Israel tend to be under-educated in non-Jewish subjects, it is also true that secularists in Israel are generally woefully ignorant of Jewish studies, especially compared to non-religious Jews overseas. If the title of your article is "Only in Israel: Torah-only education" then it is also true to crow: "Only in Israel: no-Torah education". Face it: Israelis are so embarrassingly ignorant of Jewish practice that when they travel overseas, Jews there don't even WANT to identify with the proud, secular Israeli ignorantsia. It goes both ways. (This is part of the larger problem in Israel - polarization. Instead of people meeting in the middle, they tend to fight from opposite corners. Not a happy scene.)
5. That's true !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.22.10)
I know a US educated charidi doctor . He now lives and works here . A fine guy .
6. Torah im Derech Eretz
David S   (07.22.10)
"Rabban Gamliel the son of Rabbi Judah HaNassi would say: Beautiful is the study of Torah with the way of the world, for the toil of them both causes sin to be forgotten. Ultimately, all Torah study that is not accompanied with work is destined to cease and to cause sin." AVOT Black letter law. Get to work.
7. Torah-only education
RC ,   USA   (07.22.10)
Part of the problem is that they look but do not see. I show a mystery, read, see, and understand, so that you will see light and not darkness: Proverbs 30:4, Malachi 1:6, Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2-4, Isaiah 53, Daniel 9:26, Psalm 22, Psalms 16, Psalms 20, Psalms 110, Psalms 2, Zechariah 12, Ezekiel 39:7, 1 Chronicles 17:7-14, Zechariah 6:11-15, Hebrews 2.
8. Religious Studies
RC ,   USA   (07.22.10)
Shalom. May YHWH bless Israel, bring his people together and keep them safe. Part of the problem is that they look but do not see. I show a mystery, read, see, and understand, so that you will see light and not darkness: Proverbs 30:4, Malachi 1:6, Isaiah 7:14, Micah 5:2-4, Isaiah 53, Daniel 9:26, Psalm 22, Psalms 16, Psalms 20, Psalms 110, Psalms 2, Zechariah 12, Ezekiel 39:7, 1 Chronicles 17:7-14, Zechariah 6:11-15, Hebrews 2.
9. Jake , we don't need Tora to make a living !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.22.10)
10. 2 Thoughts
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.22.10)
1. I don't see the problem resolving until the moderate datim reject the sanctimonious ignorantsia (nice wordsmithing, Jake) as "spiritual Sages." One who is ignorant about the world and universe is, necessarily, also spiritually ignorant, NOT a sage of any sort. Wearing an 18th century costume cannot change that. Clearly, putting control of conversion in the hands of Ultras is the opposite of an intelligent message (from moderate datim or anyone else). 2. I've never connected the two dots that seem to make Israel unique in this respect: between an extreme of belligerent seculars adamant about being totally ignorant of Torah, on the one hand, and an extreme of belligerent fabulist, ritualist. sanctimonious Ultras adamant about being totally ignorant of Creation, on the other. These two seem to feed on each other; each providing the "blithering fool" for the other to condemn. According to Rambam, corroborating Raban Gamliyeil (great citation, David S): "Everyone who sets his heart to occupy himself with Torah and not do melakhah, and to make a living from charity - he has done khilul ha-Sheim, disgraced the Torah, turned out the light of the religion, caused evil to himself, and removed his life from olam ha-ba: because it is forbidden to enjoy in things [i.e., on someone else's subsidy] of Torah in this world. The Khakhamim said, everyone who enjoys the things [on someone else's subsidy] of Torah removes his life from the world. and [the Khakhamim] also commanded saying, don't make [the things of Torah] an ornament to extoll yourself, nor a shovel with which to dig [into people's purses]. They also commanded saying, Love the melakhah and eschew the Rabbinate. Every Torah thing that does not have melakhah with it is doomed to be for nothing, and the end of this person is to rob society." Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Daim (Orthodox) Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)
11. Haredim
YBL MD ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.22.10)
I am Haredi, and have two higher education degrees. I am chairman of my department. Yet I can not help but be overcome by the obsession you have with Haredim. All other cultures respect a class of people dedicating their life to theological studies. We beleive that the survival of Jews is dependent on this constant uninterupted study of G-d's truth. Forcing the clergy to work in addition would water down this intense dedication. Now to address your article- Firstly you break all journalism rules by consulting with every expert on Haredim , but not a single Haredi himself. Furthermore, the Rabbis you mention were never part of this community.As a scientist, I can tell you that Rav Kook's defense of evolution was ludicrous. Rav Shneerson's followers have crowned him Messiah and await his second comiing- a little off the mainstream of Judiasm , would you not say? Stop belly aching about paying for them-they are not freeloading but toiling hard ontheir studies and these efforts are keeping you alive. Don't want to pay for it? Then let me support them with a tax break that allows me 100% credit for charitable contributions which is allowed in the USA but not here. Now if you want to talk about the multiple Chilonim who are sapping Bituach Leumi with their bogus inability to work, or the Russian goyim whose kids run while painting swastikas on Jewish graves or beating up people on Tel aviv beaches, or the violence in Chiloni Schools that doesn't exist in the Haredi system , or the fact that the Haredim predated the state and virtually do not divroce or become Yordim- I'd be happy to!
12. Are Israel's haredi males better than the Torah greats?
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, DC USA   (07.22.10)
In addition to those noted, the sages and their successors also had gainful employment - Akiva (wood cutter), Rashi (vintner), Baal Shem (digger of lime), Caro (spice dealer). Maimonides (physician) railed against those who make the study of Torah their sole vocation. Pirkei Avot counts among a father's obligations teaching his child a trade. So how did we get to this state of affairs? I agree with Jake in Jerusalem about the ignorance of Judaism among so many of Israel's seculars. Some of that is because so many are turned off by the picture of Judaism the haredim present - people who don't work and don't serve, people who riot over graves and electronics plants, people who run "modesty brigades", people who won't read a book that lacks their rabbi's blessing, and so on. Maimonides himself warned against extremism, promoting the "middle way". The hope is Israel's middle - its traditionalists and its broadly educated religious zionists.
13. to #12
David ,   Israel   (07.22.10)
...and are you (and all the others in agreement with this article) greater than today's Torah greats??? Do you all know more about the current needs of the Jewish people then its own fathers? In every generation it is only the greatest torah scholars who are given the gift of knowing exactly what that generation needs and I would rather listen to them for advice then to every tom dick and harry who thinks they know everything!!
14. THIS ARTICLE IS ABOUT...JUST MY OPINION,
BENJAMIN ,   SINGAPORE   (07.22.10)
JUST FELT IT PASSING MY MIND JUST BEFORE I SING THE VERSE.... Just before the first person is called up to the Torah a beautiful verse is sung in the Synagogue: "And you who cleave to G-d, are all alive today" (Deuteronomy 4:4). This verse is from our Parshah, Vaetchana (Deuteronomy 3:23-7:11). It focuses on an important Jewish concept: cleaving to G-d. Through this, says the verse, we "live" to the full. G-d, the Creator of the Universe, is infinite. He is the source of all being, and is beyond all being. How then can we cleave to G-d? To "cleave" means to join together, to be one. How can this word apply to the relationship of a tiny human being and boundless, eternal G-d? It if from these call to sing- i see the connection with the world. If i am a lawyer i get justice for my clients. my wife a doctor, treats sivk people but these has been the case with many great thinkers of judaism. We hold two fold functions - in the torah- talmud and the vocation in our life as jews. We jews sreved to any countries need as lawers , doctors,engineers,scientists, bankers, businessmen, pilots, army officers, researchers etc. We are orthodox and i have seen many needs of the society met by Jews in the most creative, effecient and effective way.As we do this we cleave to be one with the gentiles and the gentiles follow us.The torah is open to all !In orthodox view we cleave to G-s, we are berad winners, and we strike abalance with the modern world. We screen for what is acceptable and not acceptable.We maintain a cautious balance between secular subject and torah studies. We cultivate the national ownership sense between the state and peopel o fthe book. Orthodox judaism is very broad. This artical is also about a balance life and cleaving to Hashem ! ben singapore
15. Education
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (07.22.10)
When rabbinic leaders take their flocks to the misery and ignorance just so they can continue with its status . It is for the State of Israel to impose a quality education in all schools so that these Orthodox kids can have a choice in the future (and I'm not saiyng not to learn Tora and Mishna and guemara )
16. This article is obviously biased
Jew ,   USA   (07.22.10)
The article doesn't discuss how the Hareidim make out in Israel. While I am a supporter of secular education along with torah study, this article fails to show the problems with only Torah study. The talmud deals with problems not normally dealt with by the average layperson. These problems involve math, philosophy, and the sciences. The fact that we were always better educated was due to our torah study. The proofs of the great rabbis brought in this article are not real proofs that this was common practice. In fact, it wasn't. The great Vilna Gaon, who has a book on trigonomotry and math, did not go to university. Rabbi Chaim of Volozhin did not go to university and was an outspoken critic of entering studies in such places, yet he was brilliant in his intelligence and knowledge. Now I'm not saying that this is the way for everyone, but let's face it. Much of what is taught to us in school is not of real use in the real world. Philosophy is the perfect example of a "useless study". (By useless study, I mean that other than teaching one cannot have a job based on only a philosophy degree) If these Hareidim are able to come out of school where only Torah and talmud are learned, and can figure out a way to join the workforce, why are you barking up their tree?
17. 11 , in Jerusalem
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.22.10)
the haredim predated the State ? they were living here , mostly on charity from abroad , and did'nt contribute in any way to the establishment of the State . The contrary , they opposed it . You may deduct a part , or completely , the money given to recognised charity organisations . Regarding paying for them : look at this article about the sums thery cost us . Those efforts are keeping us alive ? How , can you explain ? or do you also think thast thanks to their [ inutile] studies we are allowed to stay here ? You could tell something as this to illiterate people 500 or more years ago , not in the 21st century . Other cultures respect theologiocal studies ? yes , but they are not paying those students . And regarding this # 10 , he's only a self proclaimed convert and a baptist missionary [ this to inform you ]
18. the contradictions
cristian ,   arg   (07.22.10)
,ge God encourages reproduction and le God requires purification rites following childbirth which in effect makes a sin, gen God was pleased with his creation and ge God was not pleased with his creation,ge God prefers abel´s offering and has no regard for cain´s and 2 ch God shows no partiality he treats all alike,gen God does change his mind and nu God does not change his mind,gen God sows discord and pr God hates anyone who sows discord,gen God details sacrificial offerings and je God says he did no such things,ge God decides to go down to see what is going on and pr God is everywhere he sees everything nothing is hidden from his view,ex God instructs the israelites to despoil the egyptians to plunder their enemies and ex God prohibits stealing defrauding or robbing a neighbour,ex God prohibits the making of any graven images whatsoever and ex God enjoys the making of two graven images,ex God prohibits the killing of the innocent and nu God orders or approves the complete extermination of groups of people which include innocent ,ex God is faithful holy and good and is God is responsible for evil,ex God remembers sin even when it has been forgiven and jer God does not remember sin when it has been forgiven,nu God inflicts sickness and jb satan inflicts sickness,dt a false prophet is one whose words do not come true death is required and ez a prophet who is deceived is deceived by God himself death is still required,,dt a castrate may not enter the assembly of the lord and is some castrates will receive special rewards,2 sa the lord inspired david to take the census and 1 ch satan inspired the census,1 ch God made solomon the wisest man that ever lived and 1 ch solomon loved many foreign women who turned him to other gods,2ch God himself causes a lying spirit and pr God abhors lying lips and delight in honesty,ps the righteous shall rejoice when he sees vengeance and pr do not rejoice when your enemy falls or stumbles and there are so much more contradictions to number so what is the fucking truth? I used to think that I was mad but when I read my creator contradictions I understand why I am mad and contradictory IF THE CREATOR OF THE OVERALL IS THE CONTRADICTION,the truth I am exhausted of God who at first chastise me and then wants to be good with me if I do and say good God proves me with curses to see if I am faithful so I get furious but when I am full of hate God blesses me to make happy and if I am evil exhausted of God then God blesses me to become me good WHAT HYPOCRITE IS GOD! WHAT MAD! If God curse me it must do until the end of me or if God blessed me it must do until the end of me,after a long time of living,thinking and feeling God I really know and realize that GOD IS A FREAK!
19. author a little out of touch
david ,   new york   (07.22.10)
he makes it sound as if yeshiva university is a haredi institution (huh??). i live next to telz yeshiva in new york, and they have almost no secular studies (they are great kids are really smart and study just about 16 hours a day). one must also take into account that israeli haredi and american haredi are not equivalent. the israelis are much more intense religiously. that being said, non-religious education of haredim in israel could be accomplished. it must be very practical and directed to earning money (no social studies) and it must be voluntary (not imposed by people like the author).
20. Agreed!
Shia ,   USA   (07.22.10)
I went to a Yeshiva High School here in America; We were taught every subject at a high level. Calculus, Physics, Biology, Chemistry, Literature, English, US History, and Economics were all taught at the AP level, for college credit. Almost all the kids from my school are extremely religious, but still hold remarkable achievements in the secular world. The valedictorian of my High School class just graduated from Harvard. I just graduated from the University of Texas. Clearly, there is room in Jewish education for both achievements. By the way, most of the kids in my school could layn a blatt gemara as well as the yeshiva students in Israel can.
21. #17 We don't accept your apostate testimony.
Eliyahu Konn ,   Yrushalayim   (07.22.10)
22. 1. who is out of touch with reality?
(07.22.10)
2. and why are there so many missionary xtians writing here? answers: 1. the haredim as a group are out of touch with reality 2. the missionary xtians are here because their belief system encourages them to think that if all the Jews return to zion their messiah will return...and so they are absolutely excited to encourage our self-distruction!
23. response to #11
elliot ,   LA   (07.23.10)
I agree with your comment that the study of Torah is essential to our lives, but the actions of the charedim are leaving them below the poverty line. Without any sort of higher education (or perhaps education at all) charedi men are handicapped from ever entering into a repsectable area of the workforce. I know personally of people who wish they could get a job, but due to the system they went through, they lack basic skills, thus destroying any chance of getting a job. Moreover, you must admit that not every tom, dick, and harry should be learning in kollel his entire life. Even at it's height, the yeshivos in Europe contained no more than 2000 students, and yet there is that and m ore just in the MIr. This supposed clergy that you mention is meant to be composed of the giants and intellectual elite of our people, who will then lead us into the future. However, when you have every nudnik "learning" in yeshiva without allowing them any secondary option, you actually water down the institution of a yeshiva, and the pedigree of a ben-torah.
24. Watch the cultic defemation try to defend itself.
Josh   (07.23.10)
BRAINWASHED
25. 17 ignores Orthodox documentation to defame 10
(07.23.10)
So much for atheist seculars. They can't handle facts in the real worl.
26. 21 , andf what about you ? yeshu adorer !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.23.10)
and maybe even a self proclaimed convert , as your mentor this pekele is ?
27. 24 = another cross adorer
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.23.10)
who "pretends" to be a "convert"
28. 3,5,9,17,26,27: Nothing but hate & defamation, w/ynet's help
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (07.23.10)
This atheist Edomite has yet to cite--quote verbatim--ANY credible proof of his hateful and defamatory rants. I challenge him (or anyone else) to quote--verbatim, not twist into your own slander--any proof of ANY of these lies about self-proclaimed or Baptist. Any imbecile can see from my messages, website, books, papers and personal bio that it's as far from Baptist or ANY kind of Christianity as anyone can be. Yet, he fills up most talkbacks with atheist hate--with ynet's cooperation. Those who publish slander are complicit, responsible and can be held accountable; particularly when proof of such lies is so easily available. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Daim (Orthodox) Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)
29. 28 , give the names of those who "converted"
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.23.10)
You . Explain why you had this "ministry of absorption" as heading . Explain why you tell a BIG LIE withj those "blessings" you did'nt receive . Explain why you were always talking about this "reibi yeshua" better known worldwide as jesus . I'm atheist , and proud of it . I , contrary to you , never told a lie , never tried to deceive HONEST people as you did . I'm contrary to you a 100 % Jew , since generations , not a fake self proclaimed convert .
30. Haredim trust an illusion !! (right on Charles)
aviG   (07.23.10)
Haredim predated the state, no starter. Other cultures respect religious only, again no starter for the Jewish People. Rav Kook defense of evolution is wrong ... Yes, TRex are fake bones and man appeared from smoke. and so on, what a trash ghetto culture !
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