Opinion
Jewish and democratic?
Shulamit Aloni
Published: 19.07.10, 00:16
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1. To Shulamit Aloni
Bracha ,   Israel   (07.19.10)
The Jewish State of Israel takes up one tiny sliver of land on the globe. If we had had a Jewish State before the Holocaust, so many Jews would have had a place to flee to and would not have been murdered. So why can't we have one small Jewish State on the whole earth? There are plenty of other countries for non-Jews to live in.
2. Mrs. Aloni
Ricardo Macher ,   Karnei Shomron IL   (07.19.10)
You keep citing 1948. I do believe that you are still there, in 1948, you cannot (or don't want to) see that 62 years passed by and that the situation is absolutely different. For you, being Jewish is not important, for the rest of the people of Israel, of course it is. Maybe that's way dinosaurs like you only find place in Ynet and other papers interested in keeping a dying left alive. I do apologize, you were a great woman, you fought for your ideas, but, the moment you decided that it's "inappropriate" to be Jewish, you told us all that we should talk about you in past tense!
3. God bless Shulamit Aloni, history is on her side
Steve Benassi ,   Silver Bay, MN USA   (07.19.10)
"There is law" for all humans not just Jews. Right winger are everywhere, Germany, America, Russia, and Israel, and history is not on their side.
4. Shame on Ynet
Thomas ,   Dixieland USA   (07.19.10)
Offering platform to hardcore Stalinist Communists like this woman is a repulsive act: Communists are guilty of genocide and ought to be shunned like their counterpart, the Fascists. What a shame that the Jewish people are unable to cut the umbilical cord to Bolshevism. But they rile when facing accusation of "Judeo-Bolshevism: ask about it - she knows more about the Yevsektziya....
5. JESUSALEN
JESUSALEN ,   JESUSALEN   (07.19.10)
search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they which testify of me and ye will not come to me that ye might have life I receive not honour from men but I know you that ye have not the love of the lord in you,I am come in my lord´s name and ye receive me not if another shall come in his own name him ye will receive how can ye believe which receive honour one of another and seek not the honour that cometh from the lord only? do not think that I will accuse you to the lord there is one that accuseth you even moses in whom ye trust for had ye believed moses ye would have believed me for he wrote of me but if ye believe not his writings how shall ye believe my words? yohanan 5.
6. To #2: Even you know what slander is.
Marcos ,   Massachusetts, USA   (07.19.10)
You slandered Ms. Aloni. She never said, implied or even hinted that it is "inappropriate" to be Jewish. This proud old Jew (most of whose extended family is Israeli) also believes that "a Jewish State cannot be democratic". A democratic state is one that treats all its citizens equally. A juridically Jewish state does not and cannot. The Israeli "Jewish-democratic" dogma is in the same category as the dogma of the "immaculate conception".
7. Israel
yonason Ottenstein ,   Brooklyn NY   (07.19.10)
When the torah talks about Israel, it refers to the children of Yaakov (israel) meaning jews, not the state of Israel The Kingdom of Israel (ten tribes) existed during the 1st temple times, but it does not exist any more. Most jews today are descendent of Yehuda and Benjamin (also some levites) from the Kingdom of Judah, hence the name jews
8. The Arabs survived the British French pleagues RIGHT ???
M. S. ,   mpls america   (07.19.10)
I realize life in the middle east is based up on a monetary and so economic equation based up on geography and so geology I was there in 1968 believe me no other place on earth is like that area calling it Israel and or Palisteine and or the J*wish state hardly starts begins to relate what it is like no other place on earth is like it and so good luck Israel trying to get every body to mumble some patriotic pleage America forced me to do it in school I mumble no pleages I am a man not a pleague mumbling coward brain like you people and so so on words mere words not action only action matters like war like peace like there is no other place on earth like that area and so good luck RIGHT ??? Thank You... M. S.
9. can someone explain to ms aloni
walt kovacs ,   los angeles, califor   (07.19.10)
that yakov avinu had his name changed by g-d to yisrael, and that when it says "children of israel" that is what it means?
10. Spot on!
Faraz ,   Meldreth, UK   (07.19.10)
Israel is ceratinly not democratic - you can see that from the treatment of non-Jews, be they Arabs or other immigrants. As for a Jewish state, there is nothing wrong with this, were it totally, utterly, indesputably 100% Jewish. This it is not and will never be. Obliging people to swear to that which they are not, is as far away from "democratic" as is possible. Surely allegiance to the state of Israel would suffice, provided it includes all its races, creeds and beliefs, in line with the declaration of independence? To do otherwise would further alienate minorities and create longer-term subterfuge for an already suffering state.
11. Aloni - incorrect meaning of "democracy"
blash ,   Jerusalem   (07.19.10)
Israel's version of democracy has quite a different meaning from Britain's. Democracy in Israel simply means a government run by the citizens and not some blood monarch. It is still up to those citizens the decision on who else to grant citizenship to not including people granted citizenship by birth. You are the EXACT reason why the West is losing to Islam - the idea that so long as we hold the moral high ground, we can die in peace. Thankfully, most Israelis are interested in fighting (yes, fighting) the enemy earlier than later.
12. Democracy since 1948
Sagi   (07.19.10)
never existed in Israel for one single moment. I am far far from being a member or sympathizer of Ms. Aloni's camp, but she is 100% correct. As long as Israel is termed Jewish it will never ever be democratic. Just as oil and water do not mix so Jewish and democratic are incompatible.I do not wish to live in a Jewish State but I most decidedly wish to live in a democracy. Democratic nations have a constitution and a Supreme Court that is respected by all. Democratic Nations are not founded and based on religion and certaily have complete separation between the two, both in politics and in education. I am completely at a crossroads in my relationship with Israel because of the abovementioned and a long long list of daily incumberances on life. I am convinced that Israel is going down the wrong road vis a vis the Palestinians and more so our future destiny. I can only envisage disaster ahead, the main reason being that we are "Jewish" instead of being "democratic". It will lead to disaster.
13. she is full of contradictions
ghostq   (07.19.10)
she was bible teacher but don't like religious people, she was socialist but live in one of the most expensive places in Israel(trust me I checked) all they blab is ok (like most lefies) as long as it's not conserning their own a$$. she alway speaks in theories but in reality none of her opinions can be implimented due to reality check.
14. to #10 easy lil grass hopper before you
ghostq   (07.19.10)
draw the right cards t, there r duties, basic duties every citizen must fulfill, until now the minorities don't even pay taxes, if you want right for minorities you will have to impose the same duties the majority have, from paying civic taxes to ponicipal taxes, to work in the state facilities, or volunteer, up until now minorities didn't show any intention to fullfill basic duties, so they got no rights, not only that they comethith demands that r not given to the general society. do it's all good and nice in theory for giving minorities their rights, but with rights there is responsibility for the general community and for the state, if someone don't fill these than they should go to third world country to enjoy absent of laws.
15. To Marcos # 6
Ricardo Macher ,   Karnei Shomron IL   (07.19.10)
Terribly sorry but I MUST disagree with you! Mrs. Aloni WAS a great woman. Today she is much more worried about arabs welfare that about Jewishness, and you cannot say I'm wrong in that. More than that, I don't know if you are old, if you are proud, I don't even know if you are Jew, but I do know that the fact that part of your family lives here in Israel, doesn't make you a better Jew. Why don't you come to Israel? Live the real thing and let me know if you will approve Mrs. Aloni's statements after that!
16. Shula is right, even tho she's left. Tough to admit
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (07.19.10)
My problem with Shula is that she's so anti-religion and thinks that it's ok to be so. It's not. Religious people are a legitimate part of any democracy. However - and this is where you better pull your seatbelts tight - I think that Aloni is correct. You cannot force religion on people, nor can you force them to pledge allegiance to a "Jewish" state that discriminates against them. Yea yea.... all you right wing nationalist religious types are already frothing at the mouth. Especially since there is indeed discrimination against minorities in this country. Not just Arabs. Not just Muslims. Not just Ethiopians. Not just converts. Not just Reforms and Conservatives. Not just Christians. Not just Sephardim. Not just Russians. Not just anybody who isn't WASP (Israelis know the term) or isn't Aguda or isn't Shas. You're weaklings! Ya hear me? You have no faith. No conviction. No energy. America is a fiercely strong democracy. It is the world's leading power. And despite the fact that its founders wanted a "Christian" country, today it is anything but. The Yanks had it right - the state has no business dictating religion. They themselves were so near-sighted they could only see their own personal brands of religion (all of them based on JC). Did the American founding fathers think of Judaism and Islam and Hinduism and Buddhism in 1776? Highly doubtful. But they had it right - the state has no business telling anybody what religion s/he has to adhere to. Israel will be strongest when it is a state of the citizens, most of whom happen to be Jews, and not a Jewish state. I personally think it would be strongest as a state of believing/practicing Jews, but that's not for the government to impose, that's for the people to choose. Aloni is right about that part, but she has spent so many years ranting and raving and telling us the Pals are our friends (so far, they're not), that nobody listens to her any more - especially not Meretz voters, who have abandoned Meretz in droves just as Meretz and Aloni have abandoned their voters. For those true students of democracy and freedom out there, after the next election when Meretz is gone, take Aloni and Geula Cohen and put them in front of a room of voters? What do you see? Both of them represent bankrupted ideologies that were rejected by the people. Both of them are extremists, yet would never consider calling themselves an "extremist". Both of them blame everybody else for the failures of their ideologies to capture the attention of the electorate - and translate that attention into Knesset seats and the power that goes with it. Aloni and Cohen are also both political weaklings. The people rejected both their ideologies: extreme left and extreme right. Shula is correct: the state has no business dictating anything to do with religion, other than reminding us that there is a separation between house of worship and state.
17. Israel is the nation-state of a people, of the Jewish people
Jehudah Ben-Israel ,   Qatzrin, Israel   (07.19.10)
and in addition it is a liberal democracy. Israel in this sense is not different than each of the Scandinavian countries, it is not different than Poland, Lithuania, Greece or Portugal Indeed, it is not different from the overwhelming majority of liberal democracies worldwide. Thus, why shouldn't the nation-state of the Jewish people demand of each of the persons who wishes to join it, either as a permanent resident and/or citizen accept Israel's legitimacy as the nation-state of the Jewish people and its liberal democratic form of its government? Only those who doubt Israel's legitimacy and nature would have difficulties accepting the above...!!
18. Let´s clear things:The Facto Israel is a Jewish State.
Ari ,   Romania   (07.19.10)
It choose the Sabath as tha day of Rest. It respect all Jewish Holidays.Which are considired also National Holidays. Part of the Laws of the country are based in Torah..So the Facto it is a Jewish State, Non the less In general terms all minorities exercise freely their religious rights. It is so democratic that Arabs get all services without complying with all duties, some of them even have the Hutzpah not to recognize the existence of Israel. Starting with the Arab MK's. They are exercising and abusing of their democratic rights. The reason why Israel should be a Jewish State, is to protect it from a demographic explosion on the arab side. Of the right of return of the Palestinians. We can relly on Aliah for the moment, to counter balance this threat, but for how long?. If Israel is only secular, and there is a demographic explosion and a Palestinan State would have been created side by side, the name of Israel could be changed by the will of the Mayority. Then it can merge with the created Palestinian State, and simple Israel is gone. Palestinians dont want Jews in their future State? Why then should we want arabs that don't identify with the country, but identify themselves as part of the Palestinians who want to destroy Israel. Europe, even if it has declare herself democratic is the Facto Cristian. Look at most of it's heads of States and Kings. Can you imagine a Jewish King in Spain or Denmark? .The Queen of England is not only the Head of State, but the head of the Anglican Church.And England is considered democratic The Jewish Character of Israel is necessary to preserve it. Maybe we are going tthrough similiar times as Esdras the Scribe. The asimilating proces is very much acelerated and Jewish identification is loosing it's grips. We are not only being atacked by arabs, but also by people who declare themselves our friends. The messianic movements are a threat to the existance of not only the State of Israel but of the Jewish people. And even that there certain restictions on prozelitazing these movements are growing in Israel, and alongside Jewish comunities in the Diaspora. The reason to create the Zionist movement and later the State of Israel is to guarantee the safety of the Jewish People by Creating a Jewish Homeland. No matter how leftists want to make from this. The democracy of the Facto Jewish State is an example to many in the world. Very few parlaiments have the variaty of political parties as Israel, and it's democracy is vigourous and dinamic. From the Far Left to the far Right you see MK expresing freely their views. Even to the point to male alianzes and betrayals with our enemies. Mrs Aloni get Serious.
19. Jews Still Need a Safe Haven = Israel Needs To Be Jewish
Abracadabra ,   Jew   (07.19.10)
She wants, at any cost, what is impossible - peace with our "Arab brothers" - the ones that have for 6 decades raised their children on a steady diet of pure HATE for Israelis, who THEY call "Jews" (i.e., kill them if you can - it doesn't matter if they are civilians!!). It sounds like Shulamit Aloni is under the illusion that if we give them "back" some "stolen" land (in addition to Jordan which was supposed to be the Palestinian state), and treat them with unearned respect (in exchange for their terrorism), that will be good for Israel because it is "fair". In reality it will destroy the State of Israel (if the Chareidim don't destroy it first). I think the "Who Is A Jew" determination in the hands of the Chareidi Rabbinate in Israel is a disaster. Put it into the hands of Daati Leumi or the Conservative Rabbinate. But going to the other extreme, which she suggests, is suicide for Israel. If there is no Jew, there is no Israel. It may be un-democratic, but Israel has aided the survival of Jews around the world for the past 60 years - Sefardi Jews, Russian Jews, Ethiopian Jews, and other Jews around the world fled to Israel when their own countries persecuted them with no end in sight, solely for the crime of being a Jew. As long as the Jew is persecuted anywhere in the world for the sole reason that he is a Jew, the State of Israel needs to be JEWISH so that the persecuted Jew has a safe haven to run to. If Israel were open to all persecuted peoples around the world, with no preference towards Jews, it may be "nice" and "fair" on the books, but it also may as well be "The USA in the Middle East" instead of a Jewish homeland for Jews around the world. This may not be the COMPLETE type of democracy as democracy is practiced in the USA or European countries, but considering that all Arab countries are theocratic, autocratic, or despotic, Israel being MOSTLY democratic in the wider Middle East Region makes it stand out as a democratic state. And with Israeli Arabs sitting in Israeli Parliament wrecking havoc and costing millions of shekel yearly to the State of Israel, I think Israel has gone far beyond the call of duty with regard to giving political power to it's sworn enemies within it's mostly democratic government.
20. # 17 Neither
Sagi   (07.19.10)
Democratic nor liberal. Democracy does not end at the ballot box. Liberalism does not encourage religious coercion and legislation.
21. To all talkbackers
Ricardo Macher ,   Karnei Shomron IL   (07.19.10)
We have discussed outside Israel in our synagogue and here between friends about what each one would answer facing a chose between Israel being Jewish or being democratic. If I would appreciate democracy over Jewishness I wouldn't be living in Israel! We have one land, one people and one Gd, our place is here in this land, our Gd is the Gd of the Jews and we are just one people, just that you can chose to abandon this people and join other peoples of the world, just like most of Am Israel did in Egypt, in Babylon and everywhere we have been. Just the hardcore, the ones that truly believe in HaShem are the ones that conform this people. We are not afraid of dissent, just that you cannot dance in 2 parties at the same time.
22. Moshe and Jefferson, a lot in common eh?
(07.19.10)
Good luck with that.
23. what's so complicated?
Alan ,   Europe   (07.19.10)
It's really very simple: 1) Don't fool yourself, EVERYBODY wanting Israel to be jewish IS a religious person and would want Israel to be a religious State. I have no problem with a Sate being religious-driven. Not at all! 2) Let's be honest : a State being religious cant ever possibly be democratic, since its all about freedome of choice and of religion etc etc etc. 3) I have no problem with that either. Not whatsoever! Its up to the people of Israel to chose what State they want to live in, religious OR democratic. In my humble opinion they should have the freedom to choose what they want their State to be. 4) The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is a religious State, maybe Israel will be too one day too. I have no problem with that. But I wont want to live in neither. I want to live in a secular State where religion stays OUT of politics. There is a saying : "People who elected their government deserve to be ruled by that government"
24. #17
michael ,   bahktapor   (07.19.10)
You are talking about a theocracy, not a democracy. And this is very offensive to people who live in real democracies.
25. to 21
sara ,   jerusalem   (07.19.10)
first there is only one god to all people ..god say if there is two gods they will quarell and destroy the earth and heaven ..or do you think that there is only a god for the 13 milion jews alover the world and the rest of people have no god .. second i prefer to say whenever wherever you pray god will listen ..instead of dancing in two parties
26. Arab dhimmis
jimmy37 ,   Brooklyn, USA   (07.19.10)
There is the out. Stop calling Arabs citizens. Then they can't claim full rights. Israel is a Jewish state. If it's so-called citizens won't promise their allegiance to the state, then they are not citizens. Citizenship can never be a one-way street, where the state guarantees certain rights,but the citizen does not support the state.
27. # 24 Is Norway a theocracy? Is Swede? Is Denmark? Or perhaps
Jehudah Ben-Israel ,   Qatzrin, Israel   (07.19.10)
Finland, Greece, Portugal, Poland, Lithuania, etc.? The above are nation-states, just as Israel is, it being the nation-state of a people, of the Jewish people, of those people whose origin is Judea (and therefore called Jewish) and whose civilization is Judaism (the civilization of the people of Judea). Indeed, Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people on historic, ethical as well as legal grounds. A series of proclamations, decisions and resolutions by the international community since 1917 have called upon the establishment in the country of a "Jewish state", the latest being a United Nations resolution, 181 to be precise. Thus, the international community, all of it, has recognized Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people, not of a Jewish religion!!!
28. Hebrew speaking Helen Thomas
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (07.19.10)
29. Ms. Aloni is an old woman, yet she doesn't remember
AL   (07.19.10)
Only a little over 60 years ago all world democracies shot their door close to the Jewish refugees. They also shot close their eyes and ears to the cries of the helpless Jews looking for escape. Democracy is not a panacea. Democratic Britain prayed that more Jews die faster so they don't have to worry about creating a Jewish state and get Arabs happy; The democratic North America, the USA and Canada sealed their borders against the Jews during the war and imposed the arms embargo when the Jews fought for their very survival in 1948 war. As to the Left, in 1968 Jews fled Poland (or were pushed out) and fought to get the h*** out of the Soviet Union. How can Ms. Aloni forget what it means for the Jews to be a minority? Even if the USA Jews are so very careful not to appear disloyal, why Moslems, who just murdered 3000 Americans build mosques near the ruins their co-religionists just created, totally unafraid. That's right Ms. Aloni, Jews are still afraid in the democracies of today -- just ask the Swedish Jews. If you do away with strong Jewish Israel, Jews may find themselves again in a situation they were until the estab lishment of Israel.
30. #14, You mean Arabs don't pay taxes in Israel?
AL   (07.19.10)
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