Jewish Scene
US rabbis: Accept homosexuals
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 28.07.10, 18:08
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1. What's the shield of King David doing in rainbow flag?
Yaniv ,   Israel   (07.28.10)
2. Pork is forbidden in the Torah
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (07.28.10)
So because some Jews eat pork we should serve it at Shabbat in the synagogue? If the Torah forbids something, then the worst thing is to honor it. Just as Jews keep milk and meat clearly separate and let us keep sin and virtue clearly separate.
3. Laura Schlessinger Again...
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (07.28.10)
Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, she holds that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. Dear Dr. Laura: Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them. a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die? i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I do look forward to your enlightenment regarding the questions that puzzle me. Then I shall pass them along to others who may appreciate your moral leadership. Sincerely.
4. Halacha is the most important thing in Judaism!
Period!   (07.28.10)
5. STATEMENT OF PRINCIPALS
Benjamin ,   SINGAPORE   (07.28.10)
I am confused by Judaism these days .......i have nothing agaist these group of homosexual jews ..but i dont understand anymore....i am sorry i just dont understand ! what about conversion ? is there a and STATEMENT OF PRINCIPALS ? ben singapore
6. # 2 Larry Los Angeles
Sagi   (07.28.10)
You obviously believe in God. You then must also believe that this God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. It follows from this that the same God created us all, you and me, the good and the bad, the kind and the evil. Why are you against one of God's creations and label it sinful and evil and want it banned. Is it your opinion that the all powerful God erred. Can God make mistakes. My belief is that you are the evil one for deriding and depriving a fellow human being of his basic rights. I do not particularly like homosexuality but I certainly believe that these people have the same rights as you and I. No one ever asked to be born and each one of us enters and leaves this world with exactly what structured him or her in their mother's womb. No one has a say in this matter, for you it comes from God, for me it is Mother Nature. Please respect the will of God as I respect the will of Mother Nature. You shall be a better person for this.
7. Already happening...
Meir J Moses   (07.28.10)
I have been to several synagogues in Canada and the UK where this is already happening. Everyone knows but keeps their mouths. As it should be.
8. @Larry in LA.
Meir J Moses   (07.28.10)
Theft is also forbidden. As is adultery. As is the breaking of Shabbat. Yet all the above happens to many Jews and they too go to shul. In the UK I have seen jailed criminals welcomed with open arms into their comunities. Do you stand at the door of your community and veto people who you believe have sinned?
9. dear sagi :-)
Benjamin ,   singapore/Hong Kong   (07.28.10)
i am also confused, about G-d and Mother Nature . I read you post @ 6 to Larry . I can see your formula but deep inside me i am prejudice by my orthodox judaism. Sagi I am really confused over theis issue of homosexual and the Conversions of righteous gentiles. If we are to accep jewish homosexual in orthodox judaism, and such liberal Statement of Principals should open the door for gentiles to conversion too . thanks ben singapore
10. #3 Mockery Nothing New
Chai ,   Canada   (07.28.10)
You know nothing about Torah laws, you're wrong in every one of your mocking statements. The Torah has been mocked for over two thousand years. Yet it is only because of observant Jewish people that respected every detail of its laws, that Jews exist in the world altogether today. Go ahead with your nonsense mockery and your future will be the same as the Seducees Karaites and all other movements that cease to exist.
11. To # 6 Sagi
Ricardo Macher ,   Karnei Shomron IL   (07.28.10)
Let me understand, if you are born gay, then you ARE different! Is that correct? So, what's all the fuss about having the same rights? You cannot be equal and different at the same time. More, Gd does no mistakes, we human beings do, each one of us has to face his burden, it's very cheap to say it's to heavy for me!
12. Sagi , @ 6 nicely written
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.28.10)
And also my ideas of copurse .
13. #6 magical thinking
ben Ish   (07.28.10)
"omnipresent, omnipotent and omnisicent" This is clearly new-age magical thinking and it has no basis in Torah. In fact, this kind of thinking is destructive to faith, because it simply provides an avenue for people to blame the Eloahi for anything that happens, anytime, anywhere. In fact Yahweh cannot behold iniquity. That is a limitation. He cannot lie, another limitation. He is bound by his own word. There is no scriptural reference that claims he is everywhere, at all times. Like I said, all it does is allow people to blame Yahweh, and very often lose their faith entirely, based on the idea that Yahweh was in full control the entire time, and therefore 100% responsible for some terrible thing, when there is ZERO evidence that he was involved at all. People abandon faith often because of this magical concept of yours. They hold Yahweh responsible, and decide that he has been too cruel to them, or if that is what Yahweh is about, then they want no part of it, etc., But he NEVER said that he was going to be everywhere, at all times, and making sure everything happens just as he wants it to. What do you think, he controls every single event on Earth, in all places, at all times? Does he determine if you are going to miss your bus? Win a roulette bet? Does he take charge of every coin toss across the earth? The leaf count of every maple tree, and exactly precisely where and when each leaf falls? The shape of every snowflake or dents in every car?
14. #2
Nachum ,   NY, USA   (07.28.10)
Actually, you make the opposite point to that which you intended. Many Jews do transgress Halacha - for example, by eating trayf or by failing to keep Shabbas - but are nonetheless welcome in shul on the understanding that such behavior is to be admonished and overcome, not condoned. That is precisely what these Rabbis are advising in regard to homosexuality - acknowledging it is an intractable issue for some, and letting those people know that while halacha cannot sanction homosexual sex, those who break that particular rule are nonetheless as welcome in shul, and as community members, as someone who drives on Shabbas or eats pork fried rice. The hope is that all Jews will be without sin: the reality is that we all have issues of our own to work through.
15. Dear Charles @ 12
(07.28.10)
you really concure with sagi ? I am pulled from two sides , i am confused over this. ben hong kong
16. To Chai #10
Ariel ,   São Paulo - Brazil   (07.28.10)
Dear Chai ... Sorry if you got offended by the article ... this was not my intention. If you prefer to live in a religious society, try to spend a month in Mea Shearim. Surely they'll be more offended by your behavior (how dare you use the Internet and read news on a non religious site) than you by my article.
17. common sense
Sam ,   Houston   (07.28.10)
as a gay married male jewish couple from canada with 2 adopted children we loudly applaude this ruling. G-d made nothing wrong except man's misconceptions of man.
18. Gays and Lesbians love Israel too
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.28.10)
19. Misleading Headline
TSB ,   Clifton USA   (07.28.10)
If you read the original statement, you will see that this article is somewhat misleading. They do not say accept homosexual couples -- they even contemplate a synagogue rejecting membership for such couples.
20. To #14
TSB ,   Clifton USA   (07.28.10)
First, there is a big difference between sinning out of weakness and accepting as normal as sinful life. Most Orthodox synagogues would not accept as full-fledged members someone who openly flouts the Sabbath and treats it the same as a weekday. (Although they would be welcome as a guest.) Second not all sins are the same. Marriage is a social institution -- it affects family life, children and social relations. If I am holding a simcha, I invite married couples together because they are a social unit. So there is a vast difference between engaging in a homosexual marriage and eating pork. If I accept the former, I am making a social statement as well as a religious one. Not so for the latter.
21. Acceptance to Homosexual, or sexual orientation?
Ruth ,   B'ham, U.S.   (07.28.10)
Aren't these the same outcry that caused God to destroy the first creation (Gen. 6) and Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19), and allowed Samson to be deceived. Has God changed, or has He giving in to Satan deception? Have these Rabbis been injected by the serpent venom to have allowed such detestable thing? Have they forgotten of the responsibility of the Levi at the gate and housetop?
22. Dear #3
David ,   Jerusalem   (07.28.10)
I know you didn't write this letter, but by posting it you show your affinity to the viewpoints expressed therein. This letter is like a child who recites a verse of Shakespeare, or who regurgitates a complex mathematical formula without knowing the significance of the equation. So too, this letter brings many challenges to the Torah based on a fundamental misunderstanding of Torah. If the person bothered to investigate Torah (if they knew Hebrew) they would realize how foolish their questions are. As much as you are required to treat your fellow man with loving kindness, we cannot just avoid what the Torah clearly states.
23. Ben Ish [ ? ]
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (07.28.10)
No basis in tora ? who needs this Tora ? it's only the History of the Jewish people . This kind of thinking is destructive to faith ..You wrote . Who needs faith ? Only weak people who otherwise would not behave as Humans should . Blame a inexisting god ? how can something that does NOT exist be responsible ? And finally , as you appartently are'nt Jewish , go preachjin your church , not here
24. Where can i get my hands on one of those flags?
Lee ,   Manchester UK   (07.28.10)
Israel is the beacon of hope for that barbaric neighbourhood, may you continue to thrive Israel.
25. Sagi - you put that beautifully ...
Lee ,   Manchester UK   (07.28.10)
these bigots don't understand that they undermine Israel - and right now are in the same league as Ahmadinejad, Mashaal, and Nazrallah and every other backward bigoted islamist maniac 'leader' .. if thats what you can call them. Israel deserves better everytime. Thats why G-d above made his Jewish state the first nation in that barbaric region to give gay people equal rights and recognition, i admire Israel. As for you talkbackers ganging up on Sagi - you ought to feel really ashamed. G-d despises people that judge others - shame on you. Shalom Sagi.
26. #6, Sagi
Amihai ,   Yesha   (07.28.10)
Some people are murderers from birth. By following what you wrote, because G-d made him like this we have to accept him ? Let's take another example. Should we let a kleptomaniac go one thieving things because it's his nature ? So let's see what the Torah is truly about : mastering his body, his nature, and to use it to transform and sanctifiy everything. But you have free will, you can choose what you want to do or not. You can follow your instincts and doing the opposite, but that's does not mean that is the right way !
27. Sagi #6
Steve   (07.28.10)
This issue is not at the top of my list of priorities. I would like to study this rabbinical letter a little further. You wrote in part: "...the same God created us all, you and me, the good and the bad, the kind and the evil. Why are you against one of God's creations and label it sinful and evil and want it banned. Is it your opinion that the all powerful God erred? Can God make mistakes....." I'm not sure it a matter of being "against" one of God's creations. When you ask, "Is it your opinion that the all powerful God erred?" isn't this a misleading question? How is one to answer such a question? I don't know about you, God created me with weaknesses that I must battle. Most people are born with one or another weakness. Often people battle a weakness for a lifetime. It's not that God erred. That's just the way it is.
28. #11
ben ,   ny, usa   (07.28.10)
so u think bec blacks are "different" than whites, they shouldnt have same freedoms as whites?? Your argument is flawed my friend
29. #6 to Sagi
thinker   (07.28.10)
In essence, your argument is rational and reasonable, but clearly must be subject to certain conditions. For example, if the subject flaunts his orientation, he is no better than (at best), say, a professional burglar who makes no secret of his livelihood. Many synagogues would reject such a member. If on the other hand he keeps his orientation to himself - as many do in the community - there never has been a problem. In the shuln that I attend (all black orthodox) there are a number of married and unmarried men who either recognise their own orientation, or deny it (to themselves, sometimes as well) who are even respected members of those congregations. There never has been a problem with any of that. I suspect that what this present initiative is attempting is to legitimise public demonstration and acceptance of what is, and always will be, a serious Torah prohibition. Note also that the signatories include not one senior scholar. In fact: who are they all, for goodness sake? Can anyone who wishes put his pawprint to the document?
30. # 26 Amihai
Sagi   (07.29.10)
Murderers and kleptomaniacs are a twist of God, or as I believe, a twist of Mother Nature, but here the similarity between them and homosexuals ceases. Man makes laws, rules and regulations so that public order can be maintained. If public order is not maintained anarchy can result. People like murderers and kleptomaniacs get punished for their crimes, this is what society has decided. Society, the one that you and I live in has, has decided not to punish a homosexual for his deviant activity, deviant to the norm that is. Oscar Wilde, by all convention, was a man of great intellect who was a giant in his particular era and within the society into which he was born and bred, yet he was punished and hounded to death by that self same society that had previously adored and feted him and showered him with love. Do you want to return to these days. Do you wish to punish your fellow man for no good sound reason other than that you do not like his behaviour and it is written in God's law that it is a "crime".
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