You're right that "that "but the Rabbis, Popes, ETC. told me...." won't go over too well." However, much responsibility, and blood, will fall on them when they are mistaken and mislead people. You wrote: "Isn't it the ultimate arrogance for any human being to believe him/herself capable to "interpret" and explain an unknown and unknowable God?" No, scientists do it all of the time. That we admit we cannot know everything doesn't hinder the logical thinker from reasoning what he or she can understand rather than throwing up the hands, remaining ignorant and relying on uninformed intuition--which is equivalent to superstition. Arrogance is introduced when any person claims their interpretation is superior BASED ON personal authority or opinion. Scientists dig out and demonstrate facts and subject facts to analyses to formulate conclusions that are based in facts and logic; scientific method. If Michio Kaku stood up and proclaimed that there is no gravity particle because he is an authority and he said so the scientific community would laugh at him for his arrogance. Yet, that is the SOP for religious interpretation--and THAT is arrogant. Torah commentators no less than scientists must--MUST-- adhere to scientific method. (Rambam did.) When they do not, it is not authoritative and not valid Halakhah simply because some "big rabbi" said so. Like Rambam, "big rabbi" must be demonstrated by their intellect and scientific method, not their nepotistic racial profile. You wrote: "one admits being an imbecile, if one doesn't go along with what some self-proclaimed or elected genius peddles." That is false from the get-go and makes no sense at all. I'm a member of Mensa with scores of IQ points to spare; yet, I don't go along with what any "self-proclaimed or elected genius peddles" unless it is compatible with Torah and science (and those who are capable can reconcile the two; those who cannot reconcile the two are simply incapable and incompetent). Refusal to learn from other people ensures enormous ignorance. Blind reliance on any human being, by contrast, is Jim Jones' Kool-Aid explicitly prohibited by Torah. You seem to be unaware of that prohibition (as are a LOT of datim). Do you need chapters and verses? An advance math or chemistry book might appear nonsense to you as well. That doesn't make it so. It only means that you don't understand it. Labeling it nonsense because you don't understand it is arrogance, assuming your opinion is omniscient. ynet refused to publish one of my postings that mentioned that "I don't know" is most often heard in scientific circles. Outside of the scientific community, everyone knows everything. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)

Who are the TRUE Orthodox Rabbanim who actually recognise your "conversion " . Answer HERE ! I would like to know why you deceived people with your "ministry of absorption heading " And finally , why did you tell a big LIE regarding those "blessings" you did'nt receive . As long you will NOT answer clearly , i , and others , Jews and gentilesw alike , will consider you a FAKE guy .

I can't even get past Genesis without laughing; not because of what I don't understand, but due to what I read and understand only too well, and that is a God, who is described as not knowing His/Her own creation and who peddled the moon as a night light, when the moon, in fact, only reflects sunlight and half the time wanders through the daytime sky. This is just a tiny example of Good Book BS and there's no human being who can explain away the total lack of facts. Look, you believe whatever blows up your skirt or floats your boat and I'll do the same. BTW, I have a lot more respect for people, who admit not to know something than for those insisting they do know, when they don't have a clue.

Perhaps the Orthodox Rabbinate will examine the Get from Bibi's first marriage (he did get one, didn't he?) and determine that getting a Get was an act of Apostacy since she wasn't Jewish because she was converted by a Reform Rabbi ... all before the meaninngless decsions of the Supreme Court brought meaningless order to this scandalous situatuon.

"BTW, I have a lot more respect for people, who admit not to know something than for those insisting they do know, when they don't have a clue." Even if you were reading the Hebrew, you are CLEARLY not comprehending beyond the simplistic and superficial. The laughable there is neither the Torah nor the Creator but (probably a translator and) the reader. A bit of your own advice wouldn't hurt you. :-) Nevertheless, all the best. You do more thinking than most.

read his #31 - he proved his conversion is fake. according to him, we shouldn't go by what some specific orthodox beit din that existed in some specific time said. if you look at the criteria of halacha he places as authority over himself, his conversion according to halacha is flawed because there is no "netzarim" and "ribi yehoshua" and "paqid" nonsense ANYWHERE TO BE FOUND. in other words, there is nothing "orthodox" about him or his religion according to halacha. we should thank paqid for proving what we've been saying all along. too bad he didn't realize what he did.

I totaly agree with you, my suggestion, ignore those scrtched on the brain here, its waste of time.

"I'm a member of Mensa with scores of IQ points to spare" - that has to be the funniest thing i have read in a long time!! you are a real piece of work. i'm not psychotic like you, but i'm, as you say, documenting that one for sure. hilarious AND proved what i've been saying all these years. uproarious as you say. great job, you rarely disappoint and this time you really wrote one for the ages, LOL!!!

there are approx 5,000,000 non orthodox and 1,000,000 ortho in the States. (Non ortho is more correct - less than 10 % of the non o. are affiliated with anything Jewish - Reform Cons or otherwise.) In a few years (15-20) there will be only 4 mill non orhto. After the same duration there will be 2 mill and after 50-60 there will be virtually no non ortho Jews left in N. America. On the other hand there is likely to be 4-5 mill ortodox in 60years. Who do you wanna put Israel's money on? Ya wanna know something? The ortho don't hate the non ortho- they are just annoying as hell. They run all the political orgs. And always have the American politico's ears. The dinosaurs musta acted that way right down to the day the meteor shower changed the face of the planet and they went extinct. "Hey you timid old fashion mamal get out of my way before I step on you- Hugh? what was that crash? It's too hot- no it's too cold....thud!

If Ruth were alive today, perhaps King David would not have been born as she probably would not be accepted as Jewish. All the streams of Judaism for one reason or another have added requirements to the conversion process. The Nazis took anybody they suspected had one drop of Jewish blood to the extermination camps. Let’s go back to the beginnings and make conversion more like it was with Ruth. I feel anybody who wants to be Jewish should be allowed to be Jewish.

Your response is typical, and proves my point. Instead of refuting my point: that patrilineal descent was the ONLY method of determining Jewishness for 2,000 years, before anybody had heard of the Rabbis, you resort to name-calling by saying. "You are ignorant, and loudmouthed" This shows you have a short fuse, and defend your beliefs with raw emotion, do not have a natural love for your fellow Jew, and believe that the definition of arrogance is someone who disagrees with Rabbinic interpretation. Next, you move on to the "if it looks black, but the Sages say it really is white, I'll believe the Sages," by saying: "Reading the scripture alone can lead to obtuse and absurd ideas..." In other words, nice work, if you can get it. The Rabbis really squelched most dissent with this one. We are the only ones who can tell you what ti really means. This is the primary belief that one must have to take the Talmud as a timeless work, rather than as an ancient work, that has some great stuff and some stupid stuff in it. But the next thing you do really must have worked in medieval times: "such as espoused by the followers of the dead messiah , the followers of the lunatic highwayman, and the Karites" Accusing those who ask a legitimate question of being Christinas or Karaites. I bet that used to shut people up. "There is another sphere of Torah, the oral transmission, clearly referred to in the text, and rendered into text by the masters of the Mishna and Talmud. " The people who claim this are the people who believe in the above circular logic: it "clearly" is referred to, but we are the only ones who can interpret what "clearly" means. "What you refer to sneeringly is the Oral Torah as reflected by the Rabbis and from there emerges our National Constitution." What do you mean, we don't have a Constitutiion in Israel? If you mean the American Constitution, then I agree, there is a great deal of brilliant Jewish law in that document, which just shows how inspired something Talmud-based can be, once all the ridiculous stuff is no longer studied. "The Orthodox do not hate the non-O. They regard them with pity, and see them a hole in the lifeboat of Judaism." We don't hate you either. I have never suggested that you stop you beliefs, just that they don't affect me in the legal sense. "The acceptance of patrelinear decsent is the de facto schism in Judaism, It was never and never will be accepted." Wrong - it was once accepted for 2,000 years. I am not asking that you accept it now, only that you acknowledge history and not impose your beliefs on others. You might also ponder the sad prophecy of the Hazal: " the future Redemption will mirror the Exodus from Egypt. In the latter, 80% stayed behind or perished. Again, I don't believe there is any way to determine percentages of who left Egypt - you must have faith in Chazal to take this seriously, and I don't believe they did anything "prohpetic", (in fact they outlawed prophecy). About the projected loss through assimilation of nearly all American Jews, the scripture foretells: And you will be lost among the Nations, the land of your enemies will consume you, Leviticus 26;38 I disagree, this was talking about what will happen before we are returned to the Land. We have been returned.

You always bring Ruth as an example of a convert , but forget , i think , that she lived thousands years ago . You can't compare . Secondly , she sacrified much by leaving her birth country in order to follow her old mother in law . She did'nt do this to got married to a Jew , but out of conviction and love for the mother of her deceased husband . Not to compare to people who "convert" in order to get married and to please the Jewish parents of their future husband or wife .

And you will be lost ..............You wrote that American Jews represent 40 % of world Jewry , 93 % of them non Orthodox [ 7 % Orthodox , you wrote ] . It are those 93 % who can be lost , having our own country or not does'nt change anything , as they don't live here .

If someone converts out of a desire to please his or her spouse, then his/her desire to be Jewish was never there to begin with. What I am saying is that those who do desire to be Jewish, should be allowed to convert under the auspices of their choice, not be forced to join the Orthodox in order to be accepted in Israel.

Religion and faith of Biblical times is not the same as what we see today, a deviation (putting it mildly). You will do well to not confuse the two.

But those non Orthodox have "converted" to MUCH people who only did it to please their future , and as far as known to me , they continue in this way . When someone brings in a conversion certificate from those non Orthjodox communities , nobody can see why this person has converted [ to please or out of conviction ] And that's the problem .

between two "conversion" certificates ? One made to "please" , the second out of conviction . I would like to know how YOU will see it .

1) You claim that the Torah stated that a Jewish father makes one Jewish. Please state your source. There isn't one because it’s not true. Saying something because you wish it to be true doesn't make it true. 2) You said that my American citizen example is incorrect because being an American citizen isn't very opinionated. According to the orthodox it is not an opinion. There is a procedure given to Moses by G-D over two thousand years ago. Wishing that the procedure doesn't exist or trying to change a procedure just because you want to does not make it valid. The reform and conservative movement, created in the past two hundred years, decided to ignore the halachac procedure and create their own, thereby claiming that people are Jews who really aren't. This was the decision of the reform and conservative movement knowing full well that these people would not be accepted as Jews by the halachic following community. I am sure there are people who convert without knowing that the orthodox won't accept them because the people converting them don't want to let them know that there are people who feel their version of Judaism is fraudulent. Saying that the majority of Jews accept your view is irrelevant. Majority doesn’t count. If you want to follow the majority in choosing your religion there are more Muslims then Jews. It must be that the Muslim religion is correct because all those people say so. Obviously that’s not true. The truth is that the orthodox will never accept these converts as Jews just like they will never accept the reform or conservative view of Judaism. When I said the author was a liar I was not referring to his entire article ( I have no opinion on that) but rather his pompous assertion of what orthodox Jews believe of reform and conservative Jews. Regarding that you don’t seem to disagree. Orthodox Jews view them a Jews, just not the people they convert.

After 60 + years of observation, it is quite clear that the vast majority of the US Jews ( 93 % ) are not just not Orthodox, but view the Orthodox as just another group of mentally ill, delusional,extremist religious fanatics who try to impose their views on the behavior and views of everyone else. The orthodox have become violent, intolerant people who do not work, do not contribute to society, do not defend Israel, and demand financial support while having lots of children that they can not afford to support themselves. I no longer consider them to be Jewish, let alone an authority that deserves to determine anything that impacts the lives of other people.

I cannot tell the difference between a certificate received out of conviction, or one just to "please". So, yes, it might happen that someone gets Jewish status in America to please a spouse. This will not hurt the conversion issue in Israel, because they won't be coming here. No one could be convinced to make aliyah unless s/he really did feel a part of the Jewish people. So, what's better, to let the 300,000 former Soviets here, who meet the Biblical standards of Jewishness, fight and die for the Jewish State, yet cannot marry "real" Jews, be considered Jewish under non-Orthodox auspices, or say "no" to them because some lady in Detroit wanted to please her husband. The real can of worms in this, is that it will be abused in poor nations, who will suddenly "feel Jewish", and expect a ticket here. So standards as far as only studying in established Reform/Conservative communities would make aliyah possible.

Instead of saying that patrilineal descent was "stated" in the Torah, I should have said that that is what was the de facto practice, and there never was a question whether the descendents of these non-Jewish wives were to be counted as a part of Israel. Here is what I mean: Judah whose wife, Shua, was a Canaanite, had children who were counted as Israelites. (Don't even try to start with the "Canaanite really means merchant" Rabbinical argument - and you accuse me of wishful thinking!) Joseph and his Egyptian wife, Asenath had children - Manasheh and Ephraim who are directly mentioned as part of the tally going to Egypt, as they are referred to in Gen 46:8: "These are the names of the Israelites, Jacob and his descendents, who came to Egypt." Gershom and Eliezer, born to Moses and Zippora, the daughter of a Midianite priest. In verse Exod 6:15, Saul is listed as being the son of Shimon and a Canaanite woman and nevertheless listed as a head of an Israelite clan, clearly indicating his complete membership within the Israelite tribe This indicates that a foreign mother doesn't disqualify one from being enumerated among the Israelites: "And the sons of Shimon: Yemuel, and Yamin, and Ohad, and Yachin, and Zohar, and Shaul the son of a Canaanitish woman. These are the families of Simeon. Numbers 1:18 indicates that Israelites were always numbered by their fathers' houses. "And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their lineage after their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls." Deut. 10:15 "Only Hashem had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and He chose their seed after them, even you, above all peoples, as it is this day." Here, "fathers" could be poetic, meaning ancestors, but the direct mention of their "seed", can also be taken literally. What I mean is, if Hashem meant for the descendents of the mothers to be "chosen", why is it phrased it this way? Ezra 2:59 states that one's Israelite status (and here we were NOT talking about the priesthood) was determined by the father's lineage: "And these were they that went up from Tel-melah, Tel Harsa, Cheruv, Addan, and Immer; but they could not tell their fathers' houses, and their seed, whether they were of Israel: the children of Delaiah, the children of Tobiah, the children of Nekoda, six hundred fifty and two. I'm sure a lot of this is "refuted" by the Midrash, which also made up a lot of claims about how some of the intermarried women actually converted,etc., to make it palatable to those following the Rabbinic path, But that's only wishful thinking, written thousands of years later, to justify the new rules. And yes, I agree with you, the American citizenship example is absolutely a good parallel to the Orthodox model - but that is the very reason for this discussion. You have people who don't want to accept the Orthodox model! If everone was in agreement as to who the final arbiters actually are, there would be no discussion. No one is ever asking the Orthodox to be forced to accept a Reform convert into their ranks. Just that your beliefs, which I believe are erroneous, do not influence the Sate of Israel anymore.

They won't come here ...you wrote . How do you know ? Studying in reform/conservative communities would make aliyah popssible ? How ? Someone wrote that there is NO mention of patriarcal lineage in the Torah ......

of more than 3000 years ago .

Judaism long ago parted ways with the Bible and really has no need of it anymore. Today's Judaism has moved on and evolved. You could say it's an entirely different religion from what is described or proscribed in the ancient text.

You can't have it both ways, Charles. You can't say that you'll accept the Orthodox claim on conversion, but not accept the reasons they claim they have this stranglehold on us. What you are saying is that you are not going to accept anything ancient, even if disproves the idea on which the Orthodox are basing their right to control us, because you are so afraid of insincere converts. Who affects Israel more, insincere intermarrieds from America, or the stranglhold the unelected Orthodox have over us. They claim they are fulfilling Biblical verses in order to be the only arbiters. First we need to understand that this is in error. The only way to do this is by proving their old ways were once revolutionary. I am not advocating going back to ancient Judaism (God forbid), and yes it has evolved. I am only asking that the State of Israel, which is a State for all the Jews, not favor the Orthodox. As far as an insincere American convert actually picking up and moving to Israel? I don't know about Petach Tikveh, but in other parts of Israel, there is dog poop next to million dollar homes, wild cats in your yard, and dirty public restrooms, of which there aren't enough, and no Target stores. Yeah, insincere American convert is coming to that. And if s/he DID make aliyah, man, kol hakavod! It's fabulous here, but I think you have to be ready to accept another reality.

I'm against every conversion . I consider them only as followers of the Jewish faith . To become Jews , some generations are needed . Regarding "dog poop" , do you think that this does NOT exist in other countries ? Cats ? just seen in the TV5 - RTBF news that they begin to sterilise wild cats in Brussels , so they have "cat problems" there too . And even a "non sincere" convert can follow he//his spouse . I met , many years ago , a non Jew married to a Jewish woman who told me that they are going to live here . He had no family abroad , her family was here . And it was in much harsher conditions then .

Bravo Norman. Anybody who wants to come and live in Israel as a Jew should be made welcome. The future of this country is about as sure as that of an iceberg in the ocean.