Jewish Scene
Mass support rally planned for defiant rabbis
Akiva Novick
Published: 15.08.10, 16:52
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21 Talkbacks for this article
BENJAMIN ,   SINGAPORE   (08.15.10)
2. State laws have to be respected !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (08.15.10)
Those rabbis should be without any reproach , they should accept the State's laws . They HAVE to obey , and explain their position to the police . That's it
3. They are wrong and should be arrested
Eric ,   Tel Aviv & New York   (08.15.10)
Freedom of speech does not allow you to yell fire in a crowded area unless there is one. Freedom of religion (which we do not have anyway) does not permit Incitement to do harm.
4. The Inherent Right to Stupidity
Yosef ,   Israel   (08.15.10)
A Rabbi "innocently" wrote a scholarly book regarding the killing of gentiles. Two rabbis "innocently" gave their imprimatur to a "scholarly work", The police, at someone's instigation initiated a probe, rather than allowing the book to fade into the obscurity it merits. The two rabbis. justifiably offended by a system they barely recognize, unless it suits them are defying the police. To support this defiance of a stupidly initiated investigation, a mass rally has been called by their colleagues in the name of the academic freedom of rabbis, as if it has ever been challenged since the anti-Maimonian dispute in the 12th century. Here we have another instance of the inherent right of every man to say, write and do stupid things
5. People against the Rabbis not cooperating should gather.
Avi   (08.15.10)
Hayarkon park
6. Discussing Perspectives...
Ezra ,   USA   (08.15.10)
This perspective was written by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira. Discussing a halachic perspective on the killing of gentiles is not a call-to-arms against the Gentile world. Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira perspective that "Anywhere where the presence of a gentile poses a threat to Israel, it is permissible to kill him, even if it is a righteous gentile who is not responsible for the threatening situation", should be discussed. A threat to Israel should be always be discussed, but can there be a threat to HaShem? Perspectives should be discussed among Rabbis to remind Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira that killing one person has the potential of destroying future nations. If the seed of this killed person would have been righteous, then it violates Torah. Who can be sure his seed won't be righteous? If Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira where a zealot who listens to no one, he should be reminded of the destruction of the 2nd Temple and the role the zealots played in destroying Israel from within. Discussing Torah is part of being Jewish. Discussing an interpenetration of Torah is performing a commandment to study Torah. Torah was written primarily for the Jewish Nation; and for anyone who clings to HaShem, to truth. As Jews the best we can do is to Love HaShem and try to understand Torah.
7. They have to be arrested.
John ,   Europe   (08.15.10)
Not only is this racism, the most violent form of it - and let's not kid ourselves, only the benevolence of the international media and their cover up is preventing this being an international problem where many synagogues could be set ablaze! Not only that I cannot see in Torah where it comes from - where is the basis for this. Not only that mr. Shapira is maybe trying to be Reish Lakesh - but forgets that Reish Lakesh speaks about IDOLATORS, and is, as a person, totally frustrated and filled with hate (a good word for him: pagans killed his whole family and made him, apparently, watch... of course the guy would be frustrated and filled with hate). So, unless somebody gives me a direct link to certain pasuk of Torah as well as clearance from Talmud and Shulhan Aruh (that it is not meant differently) - I see this act of Shapira as ADDING TO TORAH, a capital crime in haredi world. ------- Politically speaking - imagine this brakes out and newspapers around the world starts talking that "rabbi orders to kill non-Jews". I bet anybody here that first synagogue in galut would be set ablaze in one hour after article published. And when some "theologian" would then pull out the famous words from New Testament: "I didn't came here to bring peace, but sword" and "Blood on us and on our children!" and connect it - like mr. Shapira does - in a hate-call? And for Kur'an we don't even have to connect, just pull out. So bar Dior, Shapira and Yakov and let's be done with it.
8. Halachic Discussion is freedom of expression which should be
Lemmings Hotline ,   sd usa   (08.15.10)
protected by (non existent) Israeli constitution. Most of you did not read the book , so you dont have any grounds to say whether any law was broken or not
9. academic freedom
olim hadashim ,   tel aviv/israel   (08.15.10)
if there is freedom of expression of all the unnecessary rubbish under the rubric of secular culture there must be also complete freedom of expression for original jewish thinking.
10. Oh, about "academic freedom" bullshit...
John ,   Europe   (08.15.10)
So, would commentaries here allow publishing of "Mein Kampf" in Israel? And "academic" discussion where, of course, one party will defend the "parasitic roots of semitic race" and "superiority of arian race"? Mind you - this book also could be counted as "academic"! Anyone who even remotely took a glimpse on BOTH books will see that BOTH books lack the academic standards of book: fuss-notes, scientific literature as a source, source criticism etc. Our "honorable" rabbi DID NOT write an academic book "Is Torah ordering the killing of gentiles" and quotes there all pros and cons, backed up with various books and various scientists! Like Mein Kampf - it is a pamphlet! And therefore it cannot be a subject of valid academic debate! It can only be used as a symbol or proof of some scientific subject, like, "the attitude of modern radical branches of religious Zionism, its causes and effects". Also, let's not kid ourselves - mr. Shapira wrote this with intention to slide it into halacha! If he wanted to publish his mere "thought" about the matter, he would have chosen another way, such as presenting his attitudes and discoveries in front of bet din first! But he didn't do it - he went straight to publish a book! So he wanted to ENFORCE his attitude upon multitude, on which point it would be accepted as halacha (Let's not forget that many mitzvot today we have are only existing because the multitude of Jewish nation accepted it! A brief look through Talmud will show you abundance of mitzvot that are not "in use" today, not because there is no Temple/Cohanim/Sanhedrin, but because nobody accepted them! Maimonides made 613 mitzvot but let's remember it was NOT accepted in the beggining!)
11. Foolish Condemnations!
Herut ,   USA   (08.16.10)
Amazing how quick people are to condemn this book, its author, and its admirers...while the attackers have never read the book! As to the Torah, it is full of uncomfortable ideas...but then again, the deal at Mt. Sinai was to 'accept and understand it.' Lets not let "John" (really---a Jew named John?) mislead us with false assertations, not the least that "Maimonides made 613 mitzvot" or that there are no Cohanim---if the latter is true, then you must not be reading this because I am a Cohan.
12. Blood Libel Should be a Crime !
David Aarons ,   Jerusalem Israel   (08.16.10)
By not giving the public the background to the Halachic Ruling and just throwing a few inflamatory lines out there you are guilty of creating yet another Blood Libel against the Jews.that will be quickly picked up by our worst enemies .In the past this was also often done by renegade Jews such as staff this and most other Israeli medias. I say this as a Secular Jew you are guilty of Blood Libel against the Jewish People !!! This too should be a punishble crime !!
13. Hypocrisy
Yehudah ,   Israel   (08.16.10)
When Rabbi Haim Drukman, the head of the PM's Office on Conversion was attacked and villified by other rabbis, few Religious Zionists rabbis jumped to his defense, which only added to his humiliation. To write or assist in the publication of a book that may or not be politically correct, should be a matter for the courts, if at all. rather than a public rally. As compromise is preferable to litigation so should wisdom precede the pursuit of justice. This is the way taught to us by our Rabbis of old. But then, scholars of any kind are not immune from foolishness,as we are well aware, neither have rabbis been vaccinated against poor judgement.
14. If only you were as concerned about what Muslim clerics say!
Nick ,   Tel Aviv Israel   (08.16.10)
There is no legitimate reason for the actions against these Rabbis and Torah scholars. Living and working for many years among the post-Zionist cult that dominates the otherwise beautiful Tel Aviv, I shouldn't be surprised by the comments calling for obedience to The State and making flat-out insults to these Rabbis. The same crowd calling for harsh treatment of these Torah scholars is deaf, dumb, and blind when Muslim clerics - citing the Koran, Hadith, and Suna - make rulings that justify killing non-Muslims. The same ignorance, arrogance, and stupidity manifests when dealing with "Palestinian" textbooks that incite hatred and summer camps that teach children how to engage in military operations. What has happened to us that we've come to this situation? Are the lemmings amongst us really so powerful that they'll force the rest of us to join their National Suicide frenzy? Wake up, you self-styled Libertines! The people you encourage and protect will not find a place for you in their State. Just look at conditions in countries where their ideology is in power and ask yourself how long you could survive there. You may not believe it, but the Torah scholars you despise would allow you to live in peace (Cities of Refuge). They are your allies, not your enemies.
15. You don't know much, do you, Herut #11?
John ,   Europe   (08.16.10)
READ MAIMONIDES! It says directly that there are 2 types of Cohanim: - Cohanim-by-blood - Cohanim-by-trust Cohanim-by-trust are the ones that have surname and are Jews, BUT cannot be sure that their Cohenic ancestors followed all Cohenic laws of purity. For example, DID THEY MARRY A WIDOW OR NOT - in which case a baby can be a Jew, but he looses his status as "Cohen". Hence, only FIRST one are allowed in the Temple. BUT TODAY, ALL COHANIM ARE SECOND GROUP! Hence - Messiah when comes will announce who is a Cohen and who is Levi, apt to serve in Temple! You are an ignorant who do not knows much, but is self-righteous enough to open his mouth. And no, John is not my true name, my true name is Uriel, if you want to know.
16. Rabbis are ABOVE the state law if it's against Torah!!!
Shalom   (08.16.10)
Secular Israelis, including the High Court judges are NOT above the law of the Torah and NOT above Rabbis. Rabbis are above secular judges or judges who go against the Torah!!!!!!!!!
17. What a sick bunch of head cases - the lot of them!
Talula ,   Israel   (08.16.10)
I don’t know about planning a rally - they should be rallied off to a mental institution in straight-jackets, locked up and left there for good.
18. Completely WRONG , Shalom
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (08.16.10)
So a rabbi can incite to murder , even if he says what's in the Torah ? No , State laws have to be obeyed , by EVERYONE , including rabbanim .
19. Just like the state laws in Germany.
The state laws must be obeyed. What a putz.
20. To 19 , you must be sick to compare TRY # 4
Charles ,   Petacfh Tikva   (08.17.10)
and a coward too for your anonymous "writing"
Tzvi ,   NY   (08.22.10)
That is the root of the problem. Who is incharge of the nation of Israel, is it G-d or "the state". I choose G-D. Anyone else who claims to read the Shema at least 2ce everyday should choose the same, or else they are proclaiming something they don't believe in.
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