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Court: State responsible for Palestinian girl's death
Aviad Glickman
Published: 16.08.10, 19:23
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31. #28 Then you believe Nasrallah is a criminal
Cynthia ,   USA   (08.17.10)
He fired 4000 katyusha rockets at Israeli civilian populations in 2006. He had every intention of killing Israeli children yet in your posts, you idolize him. When Palestinians fire kassams into Israel, throw rocks or ambush Israeli vehicles, they know very well Israeli children can be killed by their actions. You make exceptions to your moral code when Israelis can be harmed by referring to it as the "resistance".
32. So Salma, how do we move forward?
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
There is no justification for killing any children, Israeli or Palestinian. We are in total agreement. However, what do we do about the people with black hearts on your side and mine? How do we turn them towards peace? It is indeed a pity that there is no Palestinian "Salaam Now" organization. While you feel shame at the killings, as I do over the killing of Palestinian children, I see many many Israeli peace organizations demanding that my government change its ways. I do not see any Palestinian organizations demanding that Fatah or Hamas be accountable. How do we get the Palestinian courts to investigate the Palestinians, like the Israeli courts have done here with the Israelis?
33. Finally something
Daniel Breslauer ,   Jerusalem   (08.17.10)
I read about the father's actions in a peace movement of Israeli and Palestinian families who lost family members in such terror attacks from both sides. It is just amazing to see that he still believes in peace, after what happened to his daughter. In his place, I might have joined Hamas instead of a peace movement. It's good to see that finally the court forces the 'security' forces to investigate this incident.
34. To: No. 28
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (08.17.10)
How adroitly you slithered past the issue. You entirely fail to address the fact that far more Jewish children have been killed by Palestinians than Palestinian children by Jews. I expected nothing less from you. Sadly, I expected nothing more, either.
35. Sarah #34 - either put up or shut up
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
Please provide the statistics to back up your claim. I live here (not in the USA) and from what I understand you have it backwards. I don't have any statistics handy, but would like to see more from you. Yes, Salma does indeed avoid many of the issues, but she's certainly on the record as opposing the killing of Israeli children. I'm trying to engage the enemy in debate. You're simply another basher. Let's see your numbers, please.
36. :: Brian - #29
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
It is not mine as the concept is enshrined in International law, something that Sarah B knows nothing about . I don’t know if you got my previous reply to your invite but I explained that Rami Levi is under boycott (See PA Hassan Abu Libdeh’s statement). The entire WB (and E Jerusalem) is considered occupied land, occupied by the Israeli military. When the day comes that Gush Etzion is no longer under military occupation maybe then we will meet up for a pizza and a few beers. Until then I’ll take a rain check.
37. :: Brian - #30
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
Actually international laws generally apply to sovereign nations (and/or parties belonging to a sovereign nation) and as you well know the Palestinians do not have a internationally recognized sovereign nation thus the application of international laws cannot be *fully* applied to the Palestinians. However in saying that I fully support the accountability of the Palestinian People in relation to any and all war crimes, acts of terror and violence which they have committed under Israeli occupation. Likewise I fully support the accountability of Israel, more so as Israel claims to be a civilized, modern, democratic, sovereign nation with the most moral army in the world.
38. :: Brian - #35
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
Sarah BS will be unable to back up her claim as it is a total lie so allow me to provide the stats which I have to hand. Since Sept 2000 to Aug 2010: Israeli children killed: 124 Palestinian children killed: 1,446 Each and every one of these children (regardless if they are Jewish, Muslim, Christian) is a tragic and needless loss. Now let us watch Sarah BS “adroitly” fail in backing up her preposterous claim.
39. A clarification for you, Matty in your #37
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
You say "However in saying that I fully support the accountability of the Palestinian People in relation to any and all war crimes, acts of terror and violence which they have committed under Israeli occupation." Palestinian war crimes also actually pre-date "occupation" which you probably will accept as being from the 1967 war. As for the Pallies being exempt or immune from international laws, sorry, I don't buy your "generally" claim. Either human rights laws apply to everybody or they don't. I say the Palestinians are indeed subject to international laws and treaties. Otherwise I suggest that the UN remove their seat and kick them out of the building.
40. Rami Levi boycott? By the Pals? Are you kidding?
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
Matty, the place is literally packed with Palestinians day and night. And they also buy pizzas and they and the Jewish Judeans sit in the same place munching away. I don't recall seeing an official publication by the PA that supports your claim of a boycott. This makes you an unofficial boycotter - maybe you want the dozens of Palestinian workers at RL to lose their jobs? And no, the entire area is not considered "occupied" land by the legal experts, but rather "disputed" land. Of course it depends on which experts you ask - you have yours, we have ours. You're avoiding the issue of Arabs taking Jewish land by force of war. Does this mean that you approve of it? Or does it mean that you'll demand that the PA remove all its Arab "settlers" from said lands until are not under "military occupation"? You're being a little smarmy... maybe cuz I was being unfair that two beers might cost more than a pizza. In which case, pizza AND the beers are on me. Never a better occasion to come out and see for yourself first hand. Wait... I just got it. You're boycotting no matter what - so in that case I'll shlep into town, go to the Damascus Gate area and buy pizza and beers from an Arab shop then bring them out (heck, I went to college, so lukewarm pizza is still a treat). I really don't agree that people like you boycott the field because of some ridiculous concept that you can't come see for yourself due to the "military occupation". I'll make sure that no "settlers" benefit from your visit. Lemme know when I should pick you up at the airport. (and no, it's not a bluff, I'll really pick you up at the airport... but not the Allenby Bridge if you come from Jordan...take a shared-cab from there to East Jerusalem...then we can meet at the Damascus Gate, have hot pizza, and bring the beers with us).
41. Matty - stats and liars and all that...
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
Why do you choose 2000 as your starting point? There are many more stats on both sides, for example the Maalot massacre in 1974 when terrorists killed 22 high school students (not including the 4 year kid and innocent adults they shot and killed on their way to the school). Yes, I most certainly agree that the statistics show that more Palestinian kids than Israeli kids have been killed. So what? Arguing over numbers won't bring peace, and believe it or not most of us "settlers" here in Judea do indeed want peace, and are willing to make those famous "painful concessions". Our problem is we simply don't see the honest desire by the other side for the same. The Palestinians I talk to out here seem to want it too, but there are many of them who don't. How do we win them over? Pizza and beer is a good start, if you ask me (at least for the Christians who drink beer - and there are still many Christians out here, soda for the Muslims who don't want beer). How about you sponsor a Palestinian-Israeli grass roots peace meeting in the Rami Levi parking lot (where some days the Palestinian license plates do indeed outnumber the Israeli ones)?
42. :: Brian - #40 (2nd try)
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
I know it is, Levi’s is far cheaper than most Palestinian outlets (eg: the price of milk). Stopping the Palestinians from going to the likes of Ravi Levi stores is not easy but the PA are starting to apply more and more pressure, http://tiny.cc/967iv My ‘experts’ are the EU, UN, US State Dept and the Israeli high court (all of whom have determined that the land is "occupied") who are your ‘experts’? I’m not avoiding any issue. I would also remind you that the land you are specifically referring to (Gush Etzion) was and is designated part of a (future) Arab state ie: the original UN Partition Plan. Therefore the Arabs were not taking ‘Jewish land’ as such as it was already designated to them by the UN. Well last time you offer to pay for both the pizza and beers ;) In a sense yes. I am boycotting Israel and everything that comes out of the illegal WB settlements. That said once the Israeli occupation is over I will stop my boycott and gladly meet you for pizza and beers which I will gladly pay for.
43. :: Brian - #39 (2nd try)
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
As did Jewish war crimes ie: Irgun, Stern Gang, etc. What I said was true and I was speaking from a technically legal perspective regarding the implementation of actual international laws against a non-sovereign entity however as I previously stated in principle I agree that both the Palestinians and Israelis should be held fully accountable under international/human rights laws. Palestinians *are* subject to international laws but “Sui Generically” ie: ‘in their own way’ or to put it another way - not as other fully recognized nation states are. To give an example Palestinians are fully entitled to have the Geneva Conventions applied to them (ie: both the protection that these laws provide and accountability if the Palestinians themselves break these laws) however it would be unlikely (or determined by special deliberation) whether the Palestinians could sign up and join to the NPT as they are not a fully recognized nation state.
44. :: Brian - #41
Matty Groves ,   Fairport   (08.17.10)
More accurate stats but if you want stats before that they are: 1987 - 2000: Palestinian children killed: 281 Israeli children killed: 4 You can go back as far as you want but over any 10 year period the stats show a much larger death toll of Palestinian children compared to Israeli children. Who is arguing, I am only stating provable facts. You have to remember that all Israeli settlers are living illegally in the occupied WB and E Jerusalem. You have a nation state in which to live yet ye have colonized occupied land in breech of international laws. If you want to live in peace return to Israel proper and stop stealing Palestinian land. Your problem is you think you have a say in the matter, for years the Israeli Gov has used the illegal settlers as pawns to try and steal Palestinian land and resources. The Israeli Gov will remove any and all illegal settlers (remember Gaza) if it suits their political/security needs. The formula for peace was written years ago: remove the illegal settlements and allow the Palestinians to establish their own nation on the small amount of land they have left.
45. Matty and Brian split hares, who gets the lucky foot?
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (08.17.10)
"If you want to live in peace return to Israel proper and stop stealing Palestinian land." So I return to my original point that Gush Etzion was not Palestinian land, but legally owned Jewish land. This means that the legal owners do indeed have the right to return to their land, and that the Palestinians have to grant them citizenship. In which case, I'm waiting for the letter from the PA Interior Ministry with my application forms. United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181: "Chapter 3: Citizenship, International Conventions and Financial Obligations 1. Citizenship Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights." Ergo, we have full legal basis to be here and the Palestinians are obligated to make us full citizens. It is a definite option that I'm waiting to exercise. In the meantime, under what legal basis do I have to leave, given that under Resolution 181 the Jews from Gush Etzion were entitled to both stay and get Pal citizenship?
46. to salma @ 3
Jennie ,   Israel/US   (07.10.11)
Yeah salma :The Fogel children are not the first too, to be deliberately murderred by the "peaceful" palis...Many of those killers are kids themselves.. And the huge point you fail to notice is, that while Israeli children are habitually targeted and killed by your people, Abir was never targeted, but shot by mistake during a shooting spreee...You, of all people, should keep your mouth shut...There are Thousands of Israeli children who have and are being targeted and intentially murdered by your kind...And this is going on for over 40 years..This case only shows, that Israel is a democracy in action...Can any other ME country or authority say the same ?
47. Kol Hacavod, Brian !
Jennie ,   ISrael/US   (07.10.11)
Your intelligence,sense of humor, deep knowledge of your facts and the love for your Homeland, made you the obvious winner in this "duel"...It was easily detectable, that matty was quoting his facts from notes, he is instructed to use on the subject, as he usually does..."Formula for peace"? What about the palis terror towards Israel way before the settlements ? The 1967war, the 1973 war , etc.? Were there WB Jewish settlements in the 70's and 80's ?
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