Jewish Scene
Living in ultra-Orthodox closet
Ravid Oren
Published: 02.09.10, 16:08
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31. #23
AB ,   TheRock   (09.03.10)
The torah time and again reminds us not to move one iota from what it says. Moshe gave us the whole torah the written and the oral at Mount Sinai straight from G-d Himself. The torah commands us not to deviate from what the sages say right or left. The talmud is the oral torah that eventually was written down so it is not forgotten. Anybody who has learned Talmud will quickly come to the conclusion that the wisdom of our sages came from pure ruach hakodesh ie. from Above. If you are a jew that doesn't know either what the written or the oral torah says then you are not qualified to give the advice you give.Admit to your ignorance and do something about it. But do not spread misinformation.
32. they carry the Books, but they don't carry those out
observer   (09.03.10)
Suicide is forbidden by Jewish law. Judaism has traditionally viewed suicide as a serious sin. It is not seen as an acceptable alternative even if one is being forced to commit certain cardinal sins for which one must give up one's life rather than sin. Assisting in suicide and requesting such assistance (thereby creating an accomplice to a sinful act) is also forbidden, a minimal violation of Leviticus 19:14, "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind,". were the heroes of the Masada really heroic? some 1900 years ago a thousand zealots committed suicide rather than submit to Roman rule. More recently the Israeli government has excavated a site called Gamla on the Golan Heights, where, during the same struggle, some 5,000 Jews leaped to their deaths in preference to defeat by Rome. Jews have the power to plant forests within scorched desert land. But, when disengaging, they first turn the blossoming land into scorched one.
33. Read some Freud
Zigmund ,   Vienna   (09.03.10)
People should read what Freud wrote about religion. Szigmund Shlomo Freud was born to Orthodox Jewish parents, but left religious practice early in his life. He came up with some very cogent theories about why people practice religion - basically that they crave an oceanic feeling of being taken care of originally had in the womb and a father figure who will tell them what to do, as opposed to accepting responsibility for one's own decisions regarding one's own impulses. Rituals serve to help people avoid dealing with their own impulses and Jews have plenty of them. I was raised Orthodox Jewish and now understand Freud was right. Haredim are the most scared of themselves, but all religionists share the fear. If people educate themselves, they would not have to be so severe as Haredim - or radical Islamists or the Taliban or radical Christians, for that matter. Unfortunately, this will not happen. People are so afraid that they will avoid educating themselves too.
34. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
Canadian Dude ,   Montreal, Canada   (09.03.10)
Get it, guys? The only thing wrong with the way the Torah is taught, is how rabbis teach it as if the miracles described within actually had a single shred of scientific proof to back them up. Aside from a few known hoaxes and fakes (Noah's Ark has been "discovered" several times now, for instance), no genuine proof has yet been found or even suggested. Another clue: Good ideas and beliefs can be easily defended from opposing claims, on the strength of argument and reason alone. Utter closed-mindedness is a sign of weakness and stupidity. When the Haredi community doesn't want outside ideas and influences introduced into its society, not even to show how and why they could be harmful, that should tell you all you need to know.
35. Wow, this really hit a nerve with talkbackers
Israeli   (09.03.10)
the TBs are taking this article as an attack on Judaism, Orthodoxy, etc. As an aetheist, this is not how I understood it at all.
36. Low self-esteem, inability to make choices is the problem
Miriam ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (09.03.10)
Nearly in every case when someone loses faith, or belief in God, the problem is the unresolved psychological issues of the individual. Were they to be born non-religious their depressive disposition would probably lead them in the opposite direction - to religion. Nearly everyone I know in this situation alters their lifestyle to suit their emotional needs, and they do fine. It's those that are not emotionally strong enough to act in behalf of their own welfare, that beat themselves to the ground with doubt and alienation. Giving up on religion altogether, especially God, usually leads people into a greater hell when they realize that life isn't rosier on the other side in a Godless world, but is rather meaningless, purposeless and lacking the higher consciousness of human potential. In that case either you die from misery, or you return stronger than ever. Inevitably there will come a time when one sees passed the multitude of debilitating lies and inability to distinguish the vast difference underlying differing faiths, which at one time seemed indistinguishable, that drove one away in the first place. Non-belief in God is an evolved modern science of paralyzed consciousness. Heal the heart and you heal your faith.
37. we are all brothers
olim hadashim ,   tel aviv/israel   (09.03.10)
Secular ,haredii,ashkenazi,sefaradi all real jews are brothers living as it may suit us.
38. its true
narty ,   brooklyn usa   (09.03.10)
Your right I'm like that (almost) keep up your great work. - you folks stop denying
39. Tasteless foto!
thinkagain ,   jerusalem   (09.03.10)
What a lack of sensivity,to ask this sick man to pose in ,for him an unbearable place, to illustrate the foto!
40. This article is trash
Joshua ,   Tel Aviv   (09.03.10)
Is this considered journalism. The editor decides its time to make a point and so creates an article around his message. What a load of hogwash reporting. (And this is coming from a secular person.) How about writing an unbiased article on my numerous friends who have chosen to become more observant...or would that not fit in with the company objectives. Get a life Ynet.
41. These are just excuses to be selfish and hedonistic
Unimpressed ,   Israel   (09.03.10)
Its pathetic for Matan to pretend that his reason for stopping to believe in G-d is that he found sources on the internet saying that the Exodus wasn't true. That's his deciding factor? That's his tipping point? and what if those article are later refuted? what if new evidence arises proving otherwise? What if they were bogus in the first place?These people are just looking for way out, a way to be FREE and not have to be beholden of their faith and obligations as a jew. There are a plethora of resources and people where they could have found the answers they sought about G-d and Judaism if they were sincerely searching.
42. There can be a prob. but this article is very biased
Kobi ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (09.03.10)
Now, there can be an extreme very repressed feeling in "haredi"/ultra-orthodox enclave...frankly I am surprised that there are not more. This article could only find 4-5 people and allude to a few others. Most Haredim are healthy-minded and are quite adjusted...however, I think they could benefit from a little more balanced life style. Certainly, and chief in importance there needs to be a little more spirituality in their observance like some Reb Shlomo Carlebach and or consecrating some time alone dedicated to speaking to G-d as some Breslov do (hitbodedut)...this is very powerful, This is insensitive bad timing with the coming up of the high holidays. I would like them to write an article just before or during Ramadan about Muslims loosing faith and living a lie. In fact, there is a famous semitic tomb (empty- no Christians , he didn't rise form the dead). This is believed to be Yosef (Joseph son of Jacob) who asked that when they left Egypt that htey take his body and rebury it in the homeland-the Land of Israel. Also, the succeeding dynasties never reached it previous apex after the exodus (the leaving of much of the slave worker population. This is analogous to the inquisition in Spain where they exiled Jews (yes some became Morranos). The Jews took their money with them which collapsed their economy. In short , though I have a strong academic background and firmly believe in Science (which is mostly right however as new knowledge increases we see that we do not always know the answer) I also posses a faith in G-d. I have seen some amazing things in life. Be well.
43. A real problem
Steve ,   Liverpool, UK   (09.03.10)
I don't believe that Y-net was trying to do anything other than highlight a very real human problem that is affecting more and more people. Even the haredi world is becoming more and more aware about the discontent and incongruence among a growing number of its members. Problems that were always perceived as exclusively part of the secular world are seen for what they are: endemic to the frum world. Spritual confusion and uncertainty are real. The article highlights the fact that, living within certain communities, some people find it incredibly difficult to talk about, and tackle, the personal issues of which they have become aware.
44. #43 - The only rational talkback here
Chaya ,   Tel Aviv   (09.03.10)
45. Not so fast
Hiding in Brooklyn ,   Brooklyn NY   (09.03.10)
All of you nay sayers react so quickly to defend your way of life- understandably so. The problem is that you are so mired in your own selfishness and dogma that after years of indoctrination the only thing you can resort to is flat out denile. Wake up and appreciate the fact that there may be another opinion about life and it's consequences. To indict these people because they don't agree with with your beliefs is no different then Christianity or Islam or even perhaps Nazism. Unfortunately there are many more yeshiva guys out there who are actually seeking there place in this universe and the answers of collective Judaism aren't satisfying them. As a post note, just look at the vehemence and attacks on the article itself- could you imagine the Chassidishe guy or yeshiva bachur with kids having to actually deal with his" chaveirim?"
46. HAREDI
Jeff ,   USA   (09.03.10)
You can be secular and believe in G-d. This is not a problem. these people need to study Jewish History and understand the importance of being and observing Judaism. I'm sure these ex-heredi's have not had any real Jewish history lessions. Being Jewish, Modern Orthodox, but enjoying the "real" world can be challenging, but balso be a beautiful life.
47. good article, brave strong people leaving...
rg ,   jerusalem,israel   (09.03.10)
thanks for the article, having left orthodoxy a few years ago - the struggle is one that is hard and the people in this article are strong for choosing their path and not just going along with the way their parents taught them. Kol Hakavod People! I wish you the best in your new lives of freedom...
48. Masorti Judaism
Muriel Segal ,   Buffalo, NY   (09.03.10)
The Israeli's I've met see religion in black or white. Haradi or nothing. It is possible to live a religious life with room for questions and open discussion in Masorti Judaism. The 613 mitzvot are not empty air. They provide a way to live a Jewish and moral life in a community of kind and helpful people.
49. Living in the closet
Mikesailor ,   Miami, FL   (09.03.10)
Curious how the article so much resembles articles by gay people who ultimately realize they are not 'straght'. Coming out to parents and 'friends' means risking ostracism. Apparently, not believing in religion leads to the same. The funniest part of this is the talkbacks for this article. The overwhelming majority apparently approves of the conformity and is willling too condemn someone who no longer believes as they do. They are no longer 'members of the tribe' in good standing no matter how good and moral they are as people. Apparently it not merely the haredi lifestyle they are concerned with but the nature of Judaism itself. Anf the tribal mindset blinds them from accepting new or different ideas. Sad.
50. "it didn't take long before I realised it was nonsense"
Sagi   (09.03.10)
There is hope, hope that poisoned minds can be cured of this terrible disease that has been the greatest afflication of Mankind since it was invented.
51. secular
yoram ,   USA   (09.03.10)
Total nonsense. Most probably all false. i'm not haredi but like the writer of this column, i'm somewhat jealous of them.
52. Subsidized beliefs
Mark ,   USA   (09.04.10)
I knew a Christian couple who had a child when they didn't want kids because it was the only way their parents would give them the down payment on a house. Those who get subsidized housing or parental help for being Haredim know which side their bread is buttered on. To question would be to become poor. It isn't religion, it is gross materialism. Observe and you get fiscally rewarded, question and you don't.
53. Pure Propaganda
Mike ,   Canada   (09.04.10)
As someone using a computer on Shabbat I can still clearly see that having an extensive article on those that abandon Haredi-ism despite never having any article on the much larger recent phenomenon of Baalei Teshuva (returnees to Judaism), is nothing other than pravda-isk propaganda.
54. Is it any less cultic in secular society
Shimon   (09.04.10)
The protexia, rules of dress, obligation to think and act uniformly, requirement to spy on your neighbors, fear of outsiders, persecution, shunning, racism, etc. It all is an intergral part of living in Israel secular society too. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
55. Education is a key
Elijah ,   Israel   (09.04.10)
I strongly believe that if we had a compulsory SECULAR education for every child in Israel this stories would never happen. Because when people are educated they will never condemn others for being different. And coming out for "Morranos" would be as easy as winking. We just MUST stop paying for medieval education in religious schools. These schools have already brought us on the brink of Taliban mayhem. If Haredi want to live in a past and divide buses, they can always try to move to Saudi Arabia.
56. Questioning
Phil ,   Aurora, Colorado, US   (09.05.10)
There's nothing wrong with questioning, if you're looking for the truth.
57. When your leaders have no answers...
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (09.05.10)
Why do you resign your children to follow them? Stop being a mindless robot. I can build robots if that's all ha-Sheim wanted. It's spiritually fatal for you to follow leaders who don't have answers. When you know they don't have answers it's unconscionable for you to consign your children to that fate too. There are answers and there are people who know the answers. That is why your leaders don't allow you a decent education, the internet, etc. Stop being a golem and become a ben-adam. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority www.netzarim.co.il Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)
58. Cult on the inside, cult on the outside?
Josh   (09.05.10)
Secualrs are no better off with protexia still dictating the who what when and where. Jewish people in Israel (especially the natives), can we say we are free or have been returned on the road to slavery as Moses stated would happen. Slave wages and gouged for consumer goods and rent (Top most expensive in the world) with Ten topcat families raking in all the money. Serve the elite and you get a cookie. ..is this really loyalty to "my family first" or really dellusion as you hep your family be enslaved? Soon we wake up and become true Am Israel, one faced one government and one law for all without protexia under the calm surafce. Righteous are we.
59. 57 & 58 : the same kind of NON Jews !
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (09.05.10)
Two fake guys . Only attacking the rabbanim as if they only have the knowledge of Torah . Poor self proclaimed Jews , that's what they are
60. To#57 answers
Thibkagain ,   jerusalem   (09.05.10)
Nobody knows all the answers.And not to answer is a sign of honesty.
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