Opinion
Who are the Palestinians?
Moshe Dann
Published: 13.09.10, 18:50
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
129 Talkbacks for this article
31. Yeah and the holocaust didn't happen either..
R Coyner ,   usa   (09.13.10)
Just kidding, of course the holocaust is real. The author is engaging in the same scurrilous techniques the Palestinians are regularly accused of. Why is it so important to delegitimize and demonize another people. Easy answer: it makes your own sins seem less evil. Such sins as theft of land, oppression of another people and denial of legal and human rights. Not to mention emulating the apartheid of the old South Africa.
32. It's a bit late in the game to talk semantics
Marcella   (09.13.10)
While it's sincerely appreciated that you provide us with this excellent historical overview - very needed in face of the massive rewriting of history by the Arabs, their Western allies and the Jewish left - what really matters right now is that your own government is negotiating your land and your heritage away and NOBODY seems to be doing anything about it. The country has enough solid arguments and legal ammunition to annex the land. There have been literally tons of articles written for decades in this regard. However, when Israelis find themselves facing partition, there is only the sound of keyboards being heard all over the country: columns, talkbacks, and harmless political statements by the always loyal Likudniks. But NO ACTION. There is no attempt at presenting a UNITED FRONT to hold a serious dialogue with your government. INN has an article today about Netanyahu saying that the majority of Israelis now agree to the creation of another Arab state. Besides citing polls that prove this to be inaccurate, the article contrasts his words with his 2002 speech where he found Arab statehood to be unacceptable. - "We will thus have created with our own hands a threat to our very existence." - "On the day that we sign an agreement for a state with limited authorities, what will happen if the Palestinians do what the Germans did after World War I, when they nullified the demilitarized zone?" - "We need not be concerned that the international community does not agree with us on this matter. Did the international community foresee the Holocaust? And if it did, did it do anything about it?" Yes, that was your PM speaking back in 2002. So if the Arabs want to call themselves Palestinians, let them. That's none of your concern. Just don't let them carry out their plans for the destruction of Israel. All that matters now is to establish immediate and full Jewish sovereignty over all the land. Arrangements regarding the Arab population there can be agreed on later on. And at that time you can present clear historical facts such as those listed on Mr. Dann's column.
33. "palestinians"
avi ,   nyc   (09.13.10)
If the Mandate of Palestine went as far north as the Litani river, those Lebanese arabs would also be "palestinians".
34. Palestinians from time Immemorial???
Sergio   (09.13.10)
That's real bull! Check a book that was on top f the non fiction best sellers list of the New York Review of Books a while back, called "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters, debunking such fairy tale! for abstracts: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/
35. Re: look
Alba ,   Adria, IT   (09.13.10)
...the third hypothesis is to complete the exchange of populations that started with the FORCED EMIGRATION OF OVER 900,000 JEWS FROM MUSLIM COUNTRIES...by sending the so called Palestinians back to their countries of origin from which they came AS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AFTER THE JEWS STARTED COMING BACK TO THEIR LAND AROUND 1870.... THAT is the ONLY viable solution to avoid war and death.
36. About Time! Mainstream Media Uncovers Veracity of Phillistin
Jae ,   Lynn US   (09.13.10)
Phillistine claims, and the lack thereof Its Arabism vs ZIONism; Arab/Muslim sovereignty and hegemony over all the middle east and north africa versus ancient and modern Jewish nationalism in singular Jewish homeland since antiquity.
37. Yawn ...
Everywoman ,   Earth   (09.13.10)
Same old, same old. When is Israel going to ackowledge that it was built on the backs, bones, and blood of Palestinians? There were people where you decided to establish you state. Whatever they chose or choose to call themselves historically or today is their business. Your business is to respect that and give them their due. That is, if you hope to a have a future in the region under the name of Israel. If not, keep spewing this tired old Zionist propaganda. Soon, there will be nobody to listen.
38. But the Israelis too call them Palestinians
Mike ,   USA   (09.13.10)
Same as West Bank. Jews should be calling it by its biblical name, always. I've read right wing writers referring to it as the West Bank.
39. #19 which books printed before 1964?
michael   (09.13.10)
40. Horrible article
Alicia Cohen ,   Santiago   (09.13.10)
1. France and Belgium share language and culture. They are distinct countries. Why Palestine and Jordan cannot be distinct countries too? 2. You can fool yourselves about the Jewish nature of the West Bank, but it is now inhabitated by 2.5 million people and they will not leave their houses. They world back them. 3. The Palestinian identity was forged in a tragedy, as the Jewish identidyt was forged in the persecution that we suffered along History. What made us became a people was our suffering and not our ancient roots.
41. #23 bloodyscot
courtney ,   usa   (09.13.10)
the UN partition means nothing at this point. too many wars have reshaped the land.
42. A land without a people
Steve Benassi ,   Silver Bay, MN USA   (09.13.10)
...for a people without a land. Not!
43. To: No. 31
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (09.13.10)
You are wrong. You've got the roles reversed. It is the Palestinians who are the equivalent of the Holocaust deniers, using your analogy. To address your other points, allow me to remind you that the Palestinians have rejected a two-state solution on no fewer than three occasions -- 1947; 1989 and 2000. The offer put forth in 2000 would have given them 90% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a capital. Arafat (may his name be cursed throughout eternity) rejected it and started the Second Intifada instead. May I further remind you that the Arabs have lost six wars -- all of which they started. Since you refer to international law so blithely, I am quite surprised that you are unaware that non-sovereign territory acquired in the course of fighting a defensive war may be retained and settled by the victor. The Arabs lost in 1948; they lost again in 1967. Those were the wars in which non-sovereign territory was acquired. Israel has every right to settle AND EVEN ANNEX such non-sovereign land. Be advised that if Israel does go ahead and annex Judea and Samaria -- and they probably will have to because the Palestinians are such a violent and aggressive lot -- then all the Arabs living on the West Bank will be repatriated to Jordan, country of their citizenship (which was extended to them AND THEIR PROGENY, irrevocably, by King Hussein in 1950). Denial of legal and human rights? What rights did the Germans have following World War II? What rights did the Japanese have following World War II? Did they have the "right" to set terms and conditions for anything? No, of course not! Be mindful of the fact that Israel has had to endure six wars and over sixty years of terror on a previously unimagined scale. The terror has not been restricted to Israeli Jews; it has been waged against Jews in the Diaspora, too. We're getting rather sick of them and they constitute a cancer in our body politic. They have poisoned our souls. Apartheid? What apartheid? Arabs living in Israel proper are full citizens of the State of Israel with all of the privileges and not nearly as many of the obligations. Before you throw around lofty concepts, you should actually make an effort to learn something about them. You can start with the Hague Conventions and work your way from there.
44. To: No. 40
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (09.13.10)
The French and the Walloons of Belgium share a common language and culture. But Belgium also has quite a large Flemish population; don't forget that. Things are not as politically peaceful between the Walloons and the Flemish as you may think.
45. Called Martians
Mark of Lewiston ,   Lewiston USA   (09.13.10)
The people are not going to disappear for your convenience. nor are they going to go quietly into the night for your convenience. The people are who they now perceive themselves to be. Just as 'American' was initially an artificial construct, the Brits made it real by their treatment of our ancestors. Now the Palestinians are who they are. So if you want to call them Martians, you probably can. But they will not move or die for your convenience. I seriously doubt Abbas and the people he represents will accept your construct, either. But by all means, bring it up at the negotiations. I'm sure Hillary and Abbas could use a good chuckle.
46. The truth
bill ,   USA   (09.13.10)
The Jewish people didn't exist as a political entity before 1948, as far as David and Suleiman’s time, they ruled a tribe, their political control didn't exceed a city boundary, hardly can be called a viable state like the Roman or Islamic empire. There was never before a state called Israel. The question isn't a legitimacy issue, but rather a control and power issue. The Jewish people, given good timing and right conditions and the support of the new world powers, managed to creat a political entity based on military power only. Should conditions change in the future; this political entity will go away. That doesn’t mean Muslims are morally better or worst than Jews, these are just simple fact and history. As far as who God prefers, each can claim what ever; God Chosen people were scattered and humiliated all over the world for over 2000 years. The same; Islam's great empire dispended and became a target for occupying powers from France, Britain and others. So no one has a hold on God and morality. Power is everything. If it wasn’t for Military power, the State of Israeli will not be alive today and no one can guarantee this military power including "God's chosen people"
47. #40 in Chile - you are so wrong
Schreiber ,     (09.13.10)
#1 is absurd. How far do you want to stretch your concept? The number of countries that could be split and split again based on your argument would be never ending. #2 Jews have every historical and legal right to Judea and Samaria. If latecomers such as the Arabs won't leave, then neither should the Jews of JEWDEA. #3 So the Arabs suffered tragedy and the Jews merely persecution. Ms Cohen....? And to be precise, the Jewish identity was not forged in persecution but in history and wisdom going back thousands of years, on the Covenant, on the attachment to their land, particularly Jewrusalem. Suffering did not make Jews a people. That some of them call themselves Jews while disregarding their ancient roots, that's an entirely separate issue, and one that inspires pity or scorn. What really puzzles me is how Chileans support the Palestinian cause while they themselves grabbed Bolivian land in an imperialistic war, leaving Bolivia without access to the sea. Chile also grabbed Easter Island, a Polynesian territory, with the state taking over land belonging to the indigenous people and pushing them into what in these parts is called a reservation. NPR had a report the other day on how the Rapa Nui, Easter Island indigenous people, now want to recover ownership of the entire island, their island. (For Chile Colossal Trouble In Easter Island.)
48. the problem with the zionists
(09.13.10)
is that they are trying there best to convince the world that palestinians are a fake , but what you are forgetting is that the palestinians have been here for hundreds and thousands of years , and neither you nor anyone can deny them this fact , can you tell the americans ,canadians that they dont belong to the land they live in because they have been there for less than 500 or a thousand years ?
49. @40 What tragedy ????
Trumpeldor   (09.13.10)
They refused all peace offers and tried to crush the Jewish State That is the tragedy ! Now Marcella should care for real tragedies like in Darfur,Tibet and Chechenya !
50. "Palestine" - origin
Amram ,   Toronto   (09.13.10)
The word "palestine" cannot be written or pronounced in Arabic. Changing it to "Filastin" - suggesting a link to the Philistines who disappeared over 2000 years ago - does not help. Philistines were not Arab. The Romans named the newly conquered territoty "Palestina Romana" after their mythical god Pales, both male and female, depicted with the head of a donkey, "God of the East" and "God of the Sheppards" in the texts. From that to 'Arab land', what a stretch!
51. No Such Thing As The Palestinian People
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (09.13.10)
They are nothing more than Arabs who live in the Land of Israel. Any other designation of them is a fabrication.
52. To 40 Your arguments are not working
The Dude   (09.13.10)
"'1. France and Belgium share language and culture. They are distinct countries. Why Palestine and Jordan cannot be distinct countries too? " France and Belgium may indeed be separate countries. But the fact is that Belgium is notorious for its instability, and nearly broke apart a few years ago. Hell every political party, organization (i.e. Universities), and so on are divided between French and Phlemish lines. If it were not for the central role of Brussels for the entirety of the EU, it would not be surprising to see the French part of Brussels break off and join a union with France. Especially when high-ranking Belgian politicians sing the French national anthem. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6911509.stm The fact is that Jordan is over 70% palestinian, with the Queen one and the crown prince half and half. Essentially when the King of Jordan dies, Jordan could literally become a palestinian state of the crown prince identifies himself that way. The fact is that you cannot keep demanding that 3 states essentially become palestine, when there is one already over the Jordan river. "2. You can fool yourselves about the Jewish nature of the West Bank, but it is now inhabitated by 2.5 million people and they will not leave their houses. They world back them. " Yeah, but apparently its fine and dandy to say that 6 million Jews leave there homes and basically live on the sea?.... Apparently whats good for Jews is only good for Jews? "3. The Palestinian identity was forged in a [self made] tragedy, as the Jewish identidyt was forged in the [time of David and the] persecution that we suffered along History. What made us became a people was our suffering and not our ancient roots. " What made us become a people was multiple parts. It was not only suffering, it was the fact that Jews did indeed identify themselves separately. This was also recognized literally throughout the world where Jews were recognized as a separate group of people at all times. While generally for bad cases, it was also, rarely, for good cases as well. Our identity is forged from 5,000 years of history that has born Christianity and Islam, changed the fate of the world, and acted a light upon all nations. The palestinians existence is basically 'Anti-Israel'. Literally what is their culture? Their currency? Former leaders before the 19th century? This is literally a society that has one purpose, to be anti-Israel.
53. Palestine - a land of make believe.
JR ,   UK   (09.13.10)
Subsequent to the Roman victory over the nation of Israel/Judah, which resulted in the "Diaspora", the Land was renamed "Syria Palestina" and Jerusalem renamed "Aelia Capitolina" ;- this in order to remove any Jewish connection to the Land. "Syria Palestina" eventually became anglicised into "Palestine". The region known as "Palestine" was then occupied by numerous empires including the Romans (to 330AD) and also; Byzantines (330-638AD), Arabs (Fatimids & Abbasids), and Turks (Seljuks) (638-1099AD), Crusaders (1099-1291AD), Mamluks (1291-1516AD), Ottomans (1516-1917AD), British (1917-1948AD). Israel was reborn in 1948 and exists to the present day. It is clear therefore, that the name "Palestine" as an exact and proper designation/location disappeared from the geography of the area in 1948. It still does not exist at this time, despite the distorted and expedient references which support the Arab world within the media and political realms. It should also be noted that until 1948, even Jews living in the territories were known as "Palestinians". The local Arabs declined to use the term as they believed it described the resident Jews. The Arabs preferring to be known as ....Arabs. The present use of the term "Palestine" has been developed as a powerful propaganda weapon in the hands of the Arab nations, the PLO and it's many allied factions. During the Jewish diaspora, the land of ‘Palestine' was never exclusively Arab or Muslim. Clearly Jewish nationalism and Arab nationalism, each embracing its own cluster of scattered populations, each sharing specific cultural, religious, traditional, and historical experiences deeply rooted in the Middle East region, have arisen. However, at the time of the 1920 San Remo Peace Conference, when the Jewish and the Arab sides came forward with their claims to the Land, the Arab claimants actually identified the Jewish side with Palestine. Thus confirming again that a separate "Palestinian people" did not exist at the time. The Arab nations and the PLO have harnessed the most adept & skilled resources, some of these from the Western world, to promote the mythical concept of a land of Palestine which has been the "homeland" of the Palestinian people "from time immemorial", with a Palestinian "people" having been the rightful owners and occupiers of that land, who have now themselves been dispossessed by the invading "Zionist Jews". The very adoption of the "Palestinian cause" has become the fig leaf for the Arab war against Israel. A cause which has cloaked it’s parallel agenda or destroying Israel with political and media spin that has completely distorted the publics’ perception of what is really going on in the Middle East. It is historical fact that Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Quotes from Arab leaders to this effect have already been included in other talkbacks. The UNRWA's operational definition of a Palestinian refugee is itself confined to that of an Arab whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the TWO year period between June 1946 and May 1948. The public is clearly being completely and utterly deceived by the manner in which the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is being presented to them. A process which consists of a mixture of propaganda and political euphemisms that circumvent the truth. Anti-Israeli spin.
54. True but irrelevant !!!
Tamar   (09.13.10)
There is no one else to blame but us (the Jews). We are considered a wise nation, but , alas, we are damn fools !!! We lost Israel so many time before that it seems the only place Jews love their historic land is from afar, in the galoot, pretending they long for their own country... Ofcourse the article is correct, EVERY WORD. But who is to blame? ONLY US ! We created the Palestinian "nation", we let them live among us and beside us, we gave them political power (i.e. Arafat. Who let him immigrate to Israel to begin with...?), we helped them create their militia (who gave them munition? We did !!!), we supply them with free water, free electricity and we give them free food. We even gave them tools to build their "country". So why point a finger at them? Why is it relevant now who's right? In life you have to wise, not "right". And, I'm sorry to note, the "Palestinians" are much wiser then us. Not only are they wise, they are also more patient then us. They perceived the Jewish fickleness, the hesitation, the fact that Jewish people care more about material things and "the good life" than about their own country and their own people. Maybe the big winner in this long lasting dispute is the one who is more loyal to the land and not who really started it all !!!!
55. there is no such thing as Palestine!!! PERIOD!
David   (09.13.10)
56. # 24,WAIT ,WAIT,WAIT,Your Misquoting Scriptures and History
chris ,   wales   (09.14.10)
If your going to Quote History and the Bible,Specially as it relates to Israel and their fall,Which is true,But you are so Ignorant of the History and the bible too,STOP Quting Bits to Sits what your Hoping it to be..JESUS CAME 2000 Years Ago to ISRAEL,And to the JEWS! Stop liying here that Isral never existed as a Nation or people since king david,what on earth are you talking about and what Book have you been reading! Both The New & Old testament Tells us Israel was to fall in AD-70..The romans where Rulling but Israel was still a people and Nation inspite of This. they still had the Temple including Jerusalem but the romans Governed the province while jews where still recognized as a Group and Nation even by the Roamans. The Sanhedrin was Functioning and they have Court and Councils.. But if your going to Quote the Bible,then Quote it accurately and stop reading part of it while leaving out the PART That refers to Israel's restoration in the last days. You also Ignored their return from Babylon. Around 538 BCE THE First Exile Ended with the fall of Babylon to the Persian king Cyrus the Great, who gave the Jews permission to return to their God given land,there they re-Built the temple and Continuted a nation till Ad-70. there are over 140 Prophecies given throughout the Bible stating Clearly the Exiled Jews would return from the 4 corners of the Globe,This would happen after a long time of Exile..we are now in that time of the End which Jesus refered to and all the prophets spoke about when Israel again would be Restablished! now if your going to quote the Bible,Don't Misquote and read only bits which can be used to describe anything you want them to mean!
57. #54 Tamar,NOt Quite as you say it,but...
chris ,   wales   (09.14.10)
You lost your land twice not "so many times" Big Different.And the reason for this was because Israel backslid away from God to the point where God had to Drive you out. They will come back to God though as the Scriptures make this clear. Another point you made was to blame Israel for Being Solely responsible for Creating this Palestine state. I see your point,but Israel is only partly responsible for this- because the Nations are Pushing her to create this State! Israel is thinking about her Image,she has swallowed the World's lie that she is Stealing land from another people,and she is Intimidated by so many critics who Demonise her,Thus she feels obliged. But again,the Nations and the UN are the real Villains in all of this. The Arabs have control of much of the Oil wells and their religion covers the Globe and Is Intimidating! This explains where we are today. but I want to remind you to believe in what the Prophets spoke about this day and age,Israel will Survive and this Difficult time is going to lead to ISRAEL'S FULL Restoration & Redemption! God is waiting on Enough Israelis to cry out to him,then He will Show up. Zech 12: 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
58. #60 Not so fast. Israel has ingathered millions of Jews, I
Jae ,   Lynn US   (09.14.10)
am soon to be another, resettling not far from the town my last name is named after... Half full tamar, half full (not empty), its not hard- there r so many positive things to appreciate. Many good things- where to start? There arent enough pages to write them on! :)
59. #40 - why should world pay for Arab-induced tragedies?
William ,   Israel   (09.13.10)
Perhaps the "Palestinians" were created through a collective-experience of the 1948 War. A war that Israel did not start. But, that doesn't make them the world's problem. It was the Arab nations who refused to repatriate them to their countries of origin. Countries they left to pursue better economic opportunities in Palestine thanks to the influx of British and Jewish investment. It's well-documented and you're welcome to review it. Jews were not born in tragedy of the past but in receiving the Torah over 4000 years ago. Despite the hardships Jews have endured collectively, it was the defining moment on Mt. Sinai that made us who we are, not some failed attempt at genocide based on a false narrative. There is truth in the Jewish nature of the West Bank, especially since the ethnic cleansing of Jews in 1948 is well-documented, and despite Jordan's annexation, no one except UK and Pakistan accepted it. Instead of 2.5 million Arabs moving, they can accept the 500K Jews who live there now as equal citizens...the same way Israel has accept Arabs as equal citizens. Insisting "Palestinians" have a State because of their numbers and to coexist is one thing...basing it on a fake narrative that goes to great lengths to claim themselves as Canaanites and disprove Jewish ties to the region is another, and not acceptable. That's what this story is about. Let's all drop the charade and be honest with our own pasts...and move on to a mutually-agreed upon future.
60. The British 1930s census supports this
William ,   Israel   (09.13.10)
20 different languages were spoken by Arabs in Palestine in the 1930s. How is that possible if they are "natives"? Plus, the illegal migrations of Arabs in the 1930s that couldn't be stopped, and equally the illegal movement of Arabs from Jordan and elsewhere into the West Bank from 1948-1967. That's like me claiming to be Swiss simply because I crossed the border and got a job in Bern.
Previous talkbacks
Next talkbacks
Back to article