I think it's clear to most religious Jews that there are worthy exceptions among Reform and Conservative converts, just as there are some worthy Jews among Reform and Conservative Jews. There is also general agreement that the Orthodox are being excessively tyrannical about it and constructively trying to turn Orthodox converts into rabbis' slaves--subject to an entirely separate class with separate, inferior, rights. The problem, however, is that the Reform and Conservatives imply their published creed--accepting homosexuals, declaring Torah doctrines like kashrut obsolete and superseding them with their own reformation standards. If a Reform or Conservative Jew (convert or not) shoulders the yoke of Torah, then (s)he rejects Reform and Conservative supersession and displacement theology. We've seen the results of the European Reformation--the mother of today's Reform and Conservatives--as well as the resulting rampant assimilation. The error I mentioned is that there is nothing to criticize among "born Jews" who keep Torah simply because that's the way they were raised. Torah is about keeping the b'rit, not theologizing through it. That's the entire--and sole--advantage of being born Jewish! Those who choose to abandon it are the Yishmaeils and Eisaus (Edomites) no different than Ishmael and Esau. And therein is the answer to the conundrum between birth and election, between faith and racism: Yitzkhaq and Yaaqov perpetuated the b'rit while Yishmaeil and Eisau-Edom abandoned the b'rit and were expelled. Of course there is a preponderance of genetic similarity within the family; but a Jew includes all of the adoptees along the way, including those in the Yetziyah (Exodus). Nevertheless, the determinant is the b'rit, NOT race. Those without the b'rit are NOT Jews. Those with the b'rit ARE Jews--no matter what human disagrees. Orthodox Ashkenazim may not welcome you. Many Ashkenazim don't welcome me. But you must keep your eye on Torah and ha-Sheim, NOT on Ashkenazim (and CERTAINLY not on atheists, homosexuals and other meshumadim just because they have the loudest mouths). Your obligation is to keep Torah according to logical and scientific Halakhah, and you cannot do that in minim (sects) that stand for displacement theology and superseding Torah. Follow Torah and logical Halakhah; serve ha-Sheim, not men. If it means being unpopular, remember: YOU chose to become a Jew. Be what Torah specifies a Jew is (and there are plenty of Orthodox Jews who are welcoming among the Teimanim, Mizrakhim and Sepharadim!), not what a few ignorant men trying to accumulate slaves and power tell you. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-reverer: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Jew Advocate for Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority www.netzarim.co.il Welcoming All Torah-reverers (Jews & non-Jew geirim)

I think you have both the spirit to become 100% true jews.The thing for you to do,is to find an orthodoxe Rabbi,who is ready to help in your desire to do everything to be accepted as 100% true jews.It is worth the effort,because if you have succeeded,no jew has the right,following the Tora,to even mention that you are a convert,and to humiliate you is a great sin.It seems to me that you should persevere and go for it.

They are RIGHT . For the resty : only insults , that's your only reaction and shows the kind of "people" you are . Not a wonder of a FAKE deceiving guy and a big LIAR

The only real conversion is one done according to halacha ie orthodox. Without a commitment to observe all the commandments of G-d's Torah, and an acceptance into the Jewish people by three observant shomer shabbat men, there is no Jewish soul given by G-d and hence no conversion. People's opinion makes no difference to the reality. Having gone through a halachic conversion myself, I can attest to the spiritual reality of receiving my Jewish soul from G-d. It is the reform and conservative movements who have moved away from the Jewish norm, not the other way around. While it is important to be sensitive to the feelings of anyone, whether gentile, whether they wrongly believe they are a Jew, or a fellow Jew, it is ultimately G-d Himself who bestows Jewishnees upon a true convert, and not any human being. In our rush to consider people's opinions as having objective reality, we should remember that worshipping G-d is not a democracy but a theocracy. Anyone who doesn't like that will need to take it up with Him, not the rabbis.

Give me a decent human being and I don't care to which religion he/she subscribes. As long as people insult and kill each other in the name of one or the other, I want no part of any religion. I have an adult grandson, who's been circumcised, because it was standard medical practice, but who, by choice, has never been baptized, sprinkled, dunked or whatever else somebody insists will get you to one place and/or keep you out of the other. Neither ritual or lack thereof seems to have any effect on the fact that he's a very decent, caring young man. And if I thought that God is as vacuous and petty as to put more stock into rites, rituals, macabre ceremonies, and the repetition of words, the meaning of which doesn't sink in half the time, than into the way one treats one's fellow human beings, I wouldn't want any part of Him/Her, either. If the adherents to one religion show by the way they live that they are no better or worse than those believing something else, that "Us and Them" on anyone's part seems totally ridiculous, aside from the fact that behind most wars and people killing each other is some "Us and Them." As if "Us and Them" in and of itself weren't bad enough, we hide behind it when we covet and want to take what some of "Them" have. That way we can go after it in the name of God and won't have to admit that "They" may be a little brighter than "Us" or strain our own brains to get there, ourselves. Most of all, I wouldn't want to be God and watch how my gifts are being wasted and turned into so many horror shows.

You can be a sincere follower of the Jewish faith , accepted by the religious ones . I will accept you as any other person , will eventually appreciate you as an Human being [ if i would know you personally ] . But for me , to be a Jew is certainly not only to be religious . You can't have this background Jews since generations have . I knew two sincere Orthodox converts . One married a Chassid , the sevcond one became gabbai of his Synagogue . They had different reactions as we , Jews by birth , have on discussions , not religion related . Maybe that their great grand children will be 100 % Jews , not only because following the faith .

I agree , it's not the faith people suscribe to , that counts , it's the people themselve . It's not because of a religion that people are better or worse , that people behave correctly or not . Some people need a "religion" to behave correctly , others do it without any religious "don't... " , they feel that's the way to live .

don't decide Halacha. The Torah is not what anti-religious Israelis wants it to be. It is G-d's Law, and not subject to democratic vote.

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Not sure I understand your comment. Whether you accept me as the Jew I am or not (and actually I am physically descended from a Jewish family anyway) is frankly irrelevant. Jewishness is bestowed by Hashem. There is a higher soul that Jews possess and non-Jews do not (though of course all people have a soul). This does not mean that Jews are "better", heaven forbid, simply that we have a calling to a particular way of life incorporating more responsibilities than non-Jews: the 613 mitzvot G-d gave us. You cannot base a realistic view of the many Jews who came into the people of Israel through conversion simply on two people you know. There are many people who have converted that I am sure you would have no idea that they had done so. Do you keep shabbat, kashrut and the mitzvot? If not, you may be as Jewish as I am, but you are not actually living in the way that G-d commanded us to live. Chag sameach - looking forward to the joyful celebration tonight!

It is the Democrats today who are governing according to what they think the people need!! It is the Republicans who are listening to what the people want!!

Maybe things on this planet are so screwed up, because that's exactly, who came up with and keeps perpetuating some of those "laws." Why would God, to use simple examples, decree that beef, which clogs one's arteries, is OK, but crustaceans, which don't, aren't, or why would He/She create me female in a certain way, and then call me unclean for days of every month for exactly that? Judaism doesn't have a monopoly on that sort of thing. Some of other people's divine laws, e.g. if somebody doesn't sprinkle, dunk, or put hex signs on you, you'll go to hell, are no less what I consider unmitigated insults to an omnipotent God. Why would God, having managed to create a universe, the mere size of which we barely comprehend, decide at some point in time, to convey ideas some of which are so convoluted, they constantly need to be explained and made palatable by humans, some of whom don't have the good sense to come in out of the rain? I'm sorry, but my idea of God is just a little grander than that, the gobbledygook "laws" in all the Good Books notwithstanding. If going along with those "laws" were all that's needed to justify our behavior and earn God's approval or mercy, are conscience, free will and the capacity to consider the consequences of our choices merely some sort of divine window dressing? I don't think so. Looking at history and results, why have we been killing each other no less enthusiastically "after Torah" than before?

Halacha is for religious people , we Seculars , have'nt to agree with it . Is Halacha always right ? By haslacha your neighboor , this paqid , is maybe Jewish [ i don't think so ] also right ? By halacha Monseigneur Lustiger , the bishop of Paris , was still Jewish . I don't think that , exept for his face , there was much Jewish to see when he said his mass in his church . It's not ignorance , it's not believing in this . I can decide for myself who i consider as a Jew , who i accept as Jew .

Charles, as I said in an earlier comment "The Jews that I have had a negative experience with are for the most part non observant." I see you described yourself as a secular Jew. Jewish law is, Jewish law! You cannot pick and choose what you like from it. I value the opinions of those that share my belief in Halacha. Others are not worth my time. FINAL post on the subject.

why , as a convert , they have negative experiences with seculars . We , seculars , have'nt to obey halacha [ we behave correctly withoput ] so we have'nt to accept converts as Jews . But , maybe because of their origin , this is to difficult to understand for them . They aloso show their level by converting , not very interesting people to talk with , and TRUE Jews decide when to stop to talk .

"we should not boycott or strong-arm anyone."" Literally strong arm and shun. Torah states you shall love the convert and stone the false prophet. Who taught Israel to break Torah as if G-d wanted it?

How does this apply in his case?

By writing today you only PROVE how FAKE you are . Just as a "shasbbesgoy"

I think we had already a discussion on this subject , but you did'nt react on my last post then . If you are "physically" descendant from a Jewish family , why the need to convert ? or are your Jewish "ancestors" so far away ? Jewishness is bestowed by hashem ? that's for believers , and is frankly irrelevant for me . As i said already more than once , Mgr Lustiger was also Jewish for hashem , even when saying his mass at the Paris cathedral . Not only religious people can be Jewish , seculars too are , sometimes much more than those we can see in mea Shearim . And we don't NEED to follow the commandements of a god we don't believe in . I hope you enjoyed the celebrations . And for tomorrow , שבת שלום

Regarding those two converts , at first i did'nt know that they converted , and effectively i could not see it . But , after knowing them better , i worked with the man for some months , i saw the differences . She , who married this chassid , had also expressions i NEVER heard from Jewish women ,

I think we had already a discussion on this subject , but you did'nt react on my last post then . If you are "physically" descendant from a Jewish family , why the need to convert ? or are your Jewish "ancestors" so far away ? Jewishness is bestowed by hashem ? that's for believers , and is frankly irrelevant for me . As i said already more than once , Mgr Lustiger was also Jewish for hashem , even when saying his mass at the Paris cathedral . Not only religious people can be Jewish , seculars too are , sometimes much more than those we can see in mea Shearim . And we don't NEED to follow the commandements of a god we don't believe in . I hope you enjoyed the celebrations . And for tomorrow , שבת שלום

WRONG !!! We were all there on Mt.Sinai !!! Look it up!

on this site, there MIGHT be ONE real, God-sanctioned Jew left in the world...wherever he/she may be. Let us know when you find that person. What a bunch of self-righteous rhetorical bunk. As far as the essence of the story that the majority of Israelis acknowlege converts from other streams of Judiasm, it is a nationalistic opinion which deeply threatens the orthodox monopoly of the State. Certainly explains the orthodox comments above, particularly those from inside the State. As "Reb" Amar put it "they (non-orthodox) are digging their claws in the nation of Zion..." He's right...the monopoly of 62 years is finally coming to a close.