Come on, guys! A great money can lay there! I, for first, would buy some of these products!

"new developments" for Shabbat.

They lower the level of issur, from deorayta to derabanan, or safek derabanan. That means that lechathila you are not supposed to use them unless you work in a hospital, police, army...

According to physics of course there is. And is there a difference between someone protecting the State of Israel and others not on military duty stopping the pursuit of income on the seventh day of the week? These matters do not require special equipment or special "rulings." The "problems" would be solved by logical thought and action by individuals.

between fire and electricity. Defense of the State of Israel falls into the De"orita (from the Torah and from G-d) category which states that we choose life the defense of the State is choosing life so that's that. However there are rabbinical injunctions which could prevent the discharge of certain military duties which are not clear cut examples of defending the state and therefore may in fact be a violation of the Sabbath on both the D'orita and D'rabbanan levels. Your comment that the problems be resolved by logical thought and action by individuals doesn't fit into normative Jewish thought. We Jews view ourselves as a collective as seen by the statement "Kol Israel Aravim Ze Le Ze" (All Israel is guarantor one to the other). Yep even the secular Jews believe this and that is why we are always fighting so much with one another...it's a family thing and we all stand together as a family even when we fight and argue with one another! Hope that helps you understand!

Rabbinical answer is wrong, plain and simple when it comes to fire and electricity. And there is no such thing as normative Jewish thought. Family does not trump Torah. Family is a red herring or smoked salmon or fish muddle.

I am particularly amused by the fact that you think that you can fly in the face of everything Jewish and come up with your own interpretations and declare that they are definitely correct! You are too funny!

Really there is no normative Jewish thought? Does he mean that: 1. Torah 2. Mishnaos 3. Talmud 4. all of the writings of the Mussar Movement 5. all of the writings of the Enlightenment 6. all of the writings and arguments between the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, Modern Orthodox, and Ultra Orthodox movements and subdivisions 7. the Jewish thought Departments at Tel Aviv University, Hebrew University, Ben-Gurion University etc etc all of this (and surely I am forgetting something or other) all of this with one sentence "And there is no such thing as nomative Jewish thought" poster number 6 erases! I am not at all sure that this man has any real Jewish awareness and so poster IMC I would say: you may seriously wish to consider ignoring him as it seems to me that he's just an ignorant fool who is incapable of holding serious discourse unless of course one concurs with his ridiculously catholic church supercession theory!

he's a "netzarim" - go check out their website. they believe the teachings of jesus (excuse me, their historically-revised jesus) should be taught in orthodox judaism. go figure.

actually I think he's a protestant missionary and so I decided to singe the edges of his hair by referring to his writings as being related to the Catholic Church! There's nothing that singe's a protestant missionary's hair better than calling him a Catholic! nod wink know what I mean?

Very few Rabbis feel that electricity is actually like fire halachically. The Chazon Ish is one of them, thus, there's a great number of people that rely on that perspective. However, he was understanding electricty as used 50 years ago. Today, nothing could be further from the truth. There's nothing wrong with electricity inherently - just what the effect of the electricity is. It's a drabanan anyway at this point. So, if we throw in a grama (like the mouse above) then it's mutar to use. We only sell them to soldiers and the like because, perhaps, the Chazon Ish was right in the end.

Definition of NORMATIVE 1 : of, relating to, or determining norms or standards http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/normative The halacha determined by the Beit Din is the normative and that never contradicts Torah. Why didn't that make your list?

hey, with your use of logic even i can prove i am an orthodox jew. which is why the way you use it renders it meaningless.

let's help you get an education, boy! previous TBers made reference to "D'rabbanan" go look that word up. Then you will do well to learn how to read poster #8 parenthetically writes: "and surely I am forgetting something or other" meaning that at least that person is aware that he/she may not have all the answers. Now that's an intelligent person.... you on the other hand are what the mighty Irish in NYC would call "an ijidot!" But thanks for providing all of us with a good laugh!

you culties tend to do that sort of thing you know, inside jokes, insular thought, self-congratulation, etc.

See, even when they try there is reluctance. I guess it's easier to say that Orthodox don't want to serve.

It may be easier to use generalizations be they based or not, but doing so often misses the nuances of feeling and opinion in a group.