Opinion
The Palestine question
Moshe Dann
Published: 10.12.10, 01:00
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51 Talkbacks for this article
1. Good Article!!!
D   (12.10.10)
2. Keep tellin yourself that.
Ali ,   Washington, DC   (12.10.10)
yeah yeah yeah those silly palestinians
3. WHO'S TO BLAME
jerry ,   israel   (12.10.10)
Moshe Dann correctly sees the absurdity of the situation. It has been set in motion by Obama who has opened the floodgates to delegitimize Israel. Israel needs to finally take a firm stand for its own interests.
4. At least Palestine establishment not colonial and unjust
Nour ,   Palestine   (12.10.10)
...And foreign-imposed but locally grown and supported! No need to even read the article!
5. Enough of the lies
Jay3 ,   Israel   (12.10.10)
Cant we all just say the truth. There is no such thing as a distinct Arab Palestinian people, country or land. There never has been! Why is it that the worlds, politicians and historians seem to constantly call these displaced Arabs Palestinian? They are in actual fact, Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese......that live, like all of us, in the geographical region called Palestine that covers many countries. Their founder, Arafat, was an Egyptian!. Its time for everyone....especially our politicians, to stop backing this phony charade and start calling the areas in dispute its real names....Judea and Samaria.
6. Always the Victim
David   (12.10.10)
Always playing the victim and blaming others...the author hasn't stopped to think that perhaps Obama and the rest of the World are correct--building settlements and changing the facts on the ground DOES NOT show a true intention towards peace...despite Israel's insincere proclamations otherwise.
7. premature / immature& Israeli gov. fire fighters
Nabil Hashem ,   California   (12.10.10)
lol hahaha you made me laugh yes Israeli fire fighters hmmm we saw them in action and yeaaah israel is mature and professional state that can deal with forest fire thats why egyptions ,jordanians turks and Even the palestinians were among 22 countries fire fighting crews putting out the fire , I sugest to you till you master fire fighting dont use fire fighting analagies lol i am still L.M.A.O
8. #4 locally grown and supported?!?!
The Mad Zionist ,   SF, CA   (12.10.10)
Yeah they are locally supported by israel and the US. All other arab countries fund hamas and terrorism. Fatah and the west bank pals are supported by israel and america. Get that straight!!! Of course the fatah leaders will never openly admit that as you know because one thing is said publicly and another is done privately. Before the 2nd intifada, pals worked and strived off jobs in israel, the self inflicting uprising damaged that completely. But you will never admit this or you just can't bear the truth.
9. Israel didn't complain when Truman acted prematurely
Legal Eagle ,   USA   (12.10.10)
Truman recognized Israel within the boundaries contained in the UN resolution despite the fact that it did not exercise effective control of the territory between Beersheba and the Gulf of Aqaba. There is no reason why President Obama should not recognize Palestine within the 1967 borders. Countries cannot enlarge their territories by war.
10. #6 it is a Middle Eastern Disease
Sam ,   ME   (12.10.10)
11. #9 just check your history
Alexander ,   USA/Israel   (12.10.10)
Last time I looked Israel was attacked by Jordan and Jordan lost that land to Israel. When an attacker loses land to the defender then the defender has the rights to that land. From 1948 - 1967 the Palestinians didn't care about having their own state under Jordanian rule, so why should it be any different now that it's Israeli rule? This isn't a territorial dispute, it's an ideological one. Peace will not happen because you give the ideologues land it will only make them more radical and determined in their ideology.
12. Yes the Palestinians are definitely immature
Cynic #2   (12.10.10)
Mature people have a strategic vision. The so called Palestinian state is not viable, sandwiched between Jordan and Israel. Mature Palestinians, if they are found, should integrate with Israel in a secular democratic state with equal rights for all. May be I sound immature, like the author!
13. Kosovo didn't pass the test either
Stephen Shayes ,   New York, USA   (12.10.10)
AS an attorney and a historian I can say that these legalistic tests will not prevent a nation from being established. Kosovo was missing many of these requirements when it became de facto independent. The key is for Israel is to eliminate the Palestinian Authority when the PA declares independence. By that I mean they should treat them like the Russians treated the Chechens in 2000. Nobody talks about Chechen independence now even though that was the talk of the "international community" just 10 years ago. Strength and Force work. Face it. Or live with the consequences.
14. UN Security Council Resolution 242, AS IS, is and has been..
Jehudah Ben-Israel ,   Qatzrin, Israel   (12.10.10)
...the most realistic way out of the Arab Israeli conflict and into an accommodation of peaceful coexistence between Arab and Jew, between the Muslim-Arab world and the nation-state of the Jewish people, Israel. 242 passed unanimously at the Security Council and has been accepted by ALL relevant parties to the Arab Israeli conflict, local and regional alike. Furthermore, UN Security Council Resolution 242 has been the basis for ALL peace talks to date and ALL peace treaties reached. 242 does call upon Israel to withdraw the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) from territories captured during the defensive June 1967 Six-Day War. Yet, it calls upon Israel to do so to "secure and recognized boundaries"; not to the 1949 armistice (green) line. And, it expects such a withdrawal to be achieved after negotiations between the warring parties that will determine those secure boundaries. 242, however, does not call for the setting up of an additional state in the region, nor does 242 mention concepts such as "Palestinians", "Palestine", "Palestine territories" or a "Palestinian states". Indeed, 242 assumes, realistically, that territories - not all, mind you - that Israel will vacate will revert to their former rulers: Gaza to Egypt and the "West Bank" to Jordan. Is Obama listening...??!!
15. #13 "live with the consequences"
Kai2 ,   germany   (12.10.10)
"Strenght and Force" work? Sir, that's not what i learned in school...thrice, and my guess is, life's are a little more complicated than that. May i ask you, _how long_ that strenght and force would go? Funny from a historian to think that 10 years will hold forever... and from a law person that this is decent behavior.
16. Talking with people who deny your existence is a mistake
djay ,   uk   (12.10.10)
17. How about international law?
Ahmad ,   Nablus   (12.10.10)
my suggestion to this "historian" (!?) is to dig into the international law, the UN resolutions, and the Geneva accords, he will be surprised to see that our stand is a mirror to them, while his (like the Israeli and American) one is based on the drunkeness of power and arrogance...adhere to the law, stop being above the law, then all would be fine.
18. To: No. 12
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.10.10)
Not possible. Israel will not integrate 2 million Jordanian citizens into the State of Israel. Sorry. Israel's unique identity is that of being a Jewish state. Absorbing two million Arabs will change that; sorry, cannot be done. Besides, if you read the charters of the thirty-odd organizations each of which purport to be the sole true representative of the ersatz "Palestinians," you will discover that at the core of each of those vile charters is the stated goal of the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination and/or expulsion of the Jewish people. Not a single one of those thirty-odd organizations have repudiated their charter. Not a single one of those organizations has asserted that the State of Israel has an inalienable right to exist in its ancient homeland. Not a single one of those organizations has acknowledged that the State of Israel is a Jewish state. So much for maturity and strategic vision. Those words simply do not appear in any ersatz "Palestinian" dictionary. Not surprising. The State of Israel doesn't appear on their maps, either. However you wish to characterize people who have existed in deep denial for sixty-two years, the word "mature" would be a most inappropriate choice.
19. #17 - time for you to understand International Law
michael redbourn ,   Arad Israel   (12.10.10)
Is the West Bank occupied by Israel? Yes. Did it capture it from a sovereign state? No. So who should it be returned to? Since it was not captured from a sovereign state it can only be considered as belonging to Israel. The above is international law and not wishful thinking. Michael
20. Jordan is Palestine, West Bank is Israel
drh ,   Denver, US   (12.10.10)
Let the Palestinians declare statehood. And let Israel then move in militarily and put an end to the nonsense. One of your paragraphs was so brilliant, I'm copying it here for folks to re-read and digest it. "Rather than banalities about "peace," Israel can face reality and state clearly that declarations of Palestinian statehood mean the end of the Oslo delusion. Unchained from the Oslo obligations, Palestinian moves offer new opportunities for Israel to advance its national and historical interests, especially in the area of sovereignty in Judea and Samaria."
21. To: No. 17
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.10.10)
Hogwash. Educate yourself here: http://www.globalpolitician.com/24388-israel-jerusalem Besides, do you seriously mean to suggest that engaging in terror -- something the ersatz "Palestinians" have done relentlessly for nearly seventy years, including but not limited to airplane hijackings, massacring schoolchildren, suicide bombings, hurling boulders and cement blocks at passing cars, firing missiles into civilian populated areas -- somehow comports with international law and the Geneva conventions? Let's review some of the history, shall we? 1. The Jews accepted partition in 1947, the Arabs did not. 2. The Arabs chose to go to war, and five Arab armies attacked the nascent Jewish state one day after Israel's declaration of modern statehood. 3. Israel kicked your asses in 1947, 1956, 1967, 1969-70, 1973 and 1982. On each of the foregoing occasions, the Arabs were the aggressor. Israel fought defensive wars, emerging victorious each time. To the victor belong the spoils. Just ask the Germans and the Japanese what happened to them following World War II. 4. For the better part of seventy years, the Arabs have engaged in terror on an unprecedented scale, against Jews in Israel as well as against Jews in the Diaspora. How does that comport with the Geneva Conventions and United Nations resolutions? (Answer: it doesn’t.) 5. Subsequent to the rejected offer of partition, the ersatz "Palestinians" have twice rejected an opportunity for a two-state solution, including one which would have awarded you 90% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as a capital. You chose to start the second intifada ..... and got your asses kicked again. You have a very unusual concept of what constitutes adherence to the law, one which is predicated on the ersatz "Palestinians" being above the law and not required to take responsibility for their actions, ever. It does not work that way. Clinging to your foolish pipe dreams of supplanting the State of Israel has brought you nothing but misery. Don't you think it is high time you stopped trying?
22. To: No. 9
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.10.10)
Legal beagle is more like it. Stick to sniffing out bedbugs; the law is clearly not your thing. Mandatory Palestine was all non-sovereign territory. Israel accepted partition. The Arabs did not. They chose war instead. They lost. They started five more wars, and lost each time as well. In 1967, Israel acquired non-sovereign territory in the course of fighting a defensive war. Under all recognized precepts of international law and convention, the territory is Israel's to retain or not, in Israel's sole discretion. The United Nations can blather all it wants; all the countries in the world can blather however they wish -- it does not change the fact that Israel's retention of Judea and Samaria is fully legal, as is Israel's right of settlement. Besides, the Arabs residing on the West Bank are Jordanian citizens by virtue of Jordan's 1954 Citizenship Law. When Israel annexes Judea and Samaria, as surely it must and will, its Arab residents will be repatriated to Jordan, and there is not a damn thing that anyone in the world can do about it, short of invading Israel. Which will never happen. Jordan is the "Palestinian" state (having been carved out of the Palestine Mandate to make Feisal's baby brother Abdullah happy, way back in the 1920s. There is no need to create a second "Palestinian" state. Finally -- your assertion that countries cannot enlarge their territories by war is patently ridiculous. For one thing, Israel's territory was enlarged in the course of fighting a DEFENSIVE war. Secondly, what do you think happened to 25% of German territory after World War II? Germany, as the aggressor, was punished. I remind you as well that by way of punishing Japan, the United States retained both Okinawa and Iwo Jima. Iwo Jima was returned to the Japanese in 1968; Okinawa in 1972. Israel voluntarily returned the Sinai to Egypt and withdrew from Gaza. The Golan Heights were retained and annexed; East Jerusalem was retained and annexed. Judea and Samaria will be retained and annexed. Please stop pretending you are a lawyer. Anyone with half a brain knows better.
23. To: No. 15
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (12.10.10)
"Decent behavior?" Apart from the fact that I scarcely think that a German national has the right to lecture ANYONE about decent behavior, let's look at the facts. The Arabs in Palestine and the Jews in Palestine were offered a partition plan that would have created a tiny Jewish state and a much larger Arab state. The Jews accepted partition and the Arabs did not, choosing to go to war instead. Everything that has transpired since is history. You cannot put toothpaste back into the tube. Israel has had to fight six defensive wars and emerged victorious each time. Israel has had to combat nearly seventy years of unrelenting Arab terror. Six wars and nearly seventy years of terror have to count for something. Even were France to cede Alsace and Lorraine back to Germany and Poland cede the Polish Corridor back to Germany, even were Canada to cede Quebec and Labrador back to the French and even were the United States to return Puerto Rico and Guam to Spain and New Mexico and Arizona to Mexico, there would still be no precedent applicable to Israel. Israel acquired NON-SOVEREIGN territory in the course of fighting a defensive war. It is Israel's to settle and retain entirely in her discretion.
24. Like calling ponzi scarmmer Bernie Madoff immature.
Chaim ,   Israel   (12.10.10)
"Palestinians" aren't immature. They are frauds. There is no state of "Palestine" and never was. "Palestinians" are poseurs hoping to destroy Israel and loot our modern high tech, beautiful miraculous Homeland. That is the plain truth. I'm afraid the author is being too kind by referring to "Palestinians" as immature. It's rather like calling monster ponzi scam artist Bernie Madoff immature. Like "Palestinians", Madoff is a fraud.
25. #4 Nour, Huh?
Hal ,   Usa   (12.10.10)
The Palestine gambit was Roman colonial dictate to humiliate and eradicate the name Israel from the land. Not foreign or unjust? Ottoman occupation of said territory called Palestine not colonial? Everything about the name Palestine reeks of foreign intervention, colonial occupation and injustice. Your problem Nour is that you have an identity that is bound to the other Arabs that exist in some 22 other countries. Jews have had since the Roman times only Israel. You cannot erase the distinct signs of a Jewish presence in the land, nor from historical records. Many Holocaust deniers forget that the Germans kept exact records. The Romans were no different. I suggest that you look at the Arch of Titus and explain that huge menorah the Romans were parading through the streets of Rome as loot taken from the 2nd Temple and tell me why on earth would they carve that into a monument to honor Emperor Titus who ruled at the time of the dispursement of Jews from their land? The truth Nour is that you are by definition a tool used by other Arabs that have lost the battle for the re-establishment of the Land of Israel. Your leadership had their opportunity to have a 23rd Arab nation built upon a part of the former British Mandated territory known as Palestine in 1948, but as we all know, that was thoroughly rejected by your greedy Nazi loving leaders as well as your corrupt and duplicitous Arab brethren in the other Arab nations, equally greedy and shameless. Too bad for you that their plans did not pan out for you. They tried many times to steal through war what they refused to negotiate through diplomacy or dialogue. For over 62 years, neither your leadership such as it was and is nor the other corrupt Arab entities have had a serious notion about how to equitably solve this problem but through war and violence. Even the use of the term Palestinians was a recent ploy by your resident master thief Yasser Arafat in 1964 to gain an advantage in extracting money from the oil rich Arabs to be use by this rat to feather his own nest and further his political stature. That is the reeason why you have nothing and will recieve nothing for your crummy efforts. What you get for your crummy efforts is not what you truly deserve I'm sorry to say!
26. Ahmad #17 by all means let's look
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (12.10.10)
Where is there a single legal for the Arabs? Can you name one? Bet not. By the way General Assembly resolutions are RECOMMENDATIONS only. That is international law. Now for the real international laws - like the ones that state ALL land west of the Jordan belongs to the Jews for a national homeland. Those that that state that it cannot be given to any other government or group. That Jews are allowed to build on any government land that is not specifically reserved for a purpose. Care to talk about those INTERNATIONAL LAWS? I bet not too.
27. No need
Sean ,   Miami   (12.10.10)
"No need to even read the article!" And you clearly did not.
28. Re #4
Andrew Brehm   (12.11.10)
Exactly. None of the Arab states outside Arabia are in any way colonial, unjust or foreign imposed. And neither was the European presence outside Europe or Turkish rule outside Turkey.
29. Re #6
Andrew Brehm   (12.11.10)
In what way does building houses not show a true intention towards peace? Is peace only possible if Jews are homeless? The Jews who fled Arab countries have to live somewhere. True or false? Israel wants peace and houses for Jews. What's the Arab demand?
30. Re #9
Andrew Brehm   (12.11.10)
The British mandate controlled the land. Hence Israel could be recognised in those borders. The problem with recognising "Palestine" within the 1967 borders is that in 1967, there was no "Palestine". I recognise "Palestine" in the 1967 borders right now, if you want. Countries cannot enlarge their territories by war? Really? So how did the US grow?
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