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Rabbi Yosef: Doctors kill the living
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 27.12.10, 07:49
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32 Talkbacks for this article
1. Very sad - and I want to vent ...
John DeLancy ,   Alaska, USA   (12.27.10)
so please bear with me. We lost our granddaughter to SIDS this past year, 2 days after Tisha b'Av. My heart and my wife's heart both hurt, and our loss is but a shadow of our daughter's pain. My thought when I see this issue raised is how very grateful we would be to take one such baby and raise her. She would be raised a Jew. Perhaps in more of a Reformed environment than some would like, but she would know her people and her G-D. I would like to think there are people who are 1) there in Israel and 2) somewhat less poor, and that these people would raise such children to know the children of Israel and the G-D of Israel. Okay, thanks for letting me vent.
2. he speaks
dr. ,   jerusalem   (12.27.10)
as a rabi like many peoples who are not doctors .in religion abortion is forbiden without a cause .but sciense can tell it .. many women refuse to do the last test to determine the abortion and i think it was the case in the woman who mentioned .......
3. Easy to talk!
Yakov ,   Tel Aviv   (12.27.10)
The decision to terminate a pregnancy is never an easy one. It is easy though, to make insensitive comments, and add incitement to an already contentious issue. It is shameful, that a Rabbi, a spiritual leader, fails to see past the Torah, and see his own people. It is fine to teach Torah, and respect Jewish law. However, wisdom, judgement and compassion are necessary to make these laws meaningful. This is where the Rabbi fails, and spectacularly. He may know Jewish law, but he does not understand Jews, he doesn't understand humans, and for that, he is a failure!
4. Ha !Doctors are more compassionate than you Rabbi!!
Salma ,   Palestine   (12.27.10)
just to remind you , Rabbi Ovaida Yosef Calls For Genocide of Palestinians all Palestinians ,men women and even infants!
5. same sweet words if the child doesn't follow his teachings?
mike ,   israel (formerly usa   (12.27.10)
what will he say about the child that chooses a lifestyle that doesn't meet his approval? will that child be on the receiving end of some of his hateful words and called some no-so-nice things?
6. In Judaism the mother's mental & physical health are first..
this is the exact opposite from the Christian dogma in this matter. It is up to the mother to decide together with her rabbi (if she has one and follows that brand of Judaism) with her physician and with herself and if she is married with her husband. I am against blind knee jerk general decisions in this matter. It must be done on a case by case basis. Surely if the rabbi were approached by a woman who had been raped either by a stranger or relative (thereby raising the issue of incest and the fruit of such a forbidden union) the rabbi would make a different decision. In other words issues of pregnancy and abortion are personal and each must be decided on a case by case basis. Surely Rabbi Yosef knows this and knows that making a broad general ruling on this matter is strictly forbidden by Jewish Halaha.
7. Another example
Mike Carmel ,   Rishon le Zion   (12.27.10)
Another example of baseless flippant comments on difficult personal and social issues by this mumbling doddering old codger with the communication skills of a donkey. What does he think? That women undergo abortions lightly just because they don't want the baby? Or is there usually a more serious reason? Of course there is! But of course we wouldn't expect the likes of him to appreciate anything like the plight of a mere woman would we?
8. Dear Rabbi, Priest, Minister, Imam, etc.
seadog1946 ,   Ong's Hat, NJ USA   (12.27.10)
It's a woman's choice to conceive and it's her choice to complete or terminate a pregnancy. To use abortion as a method of birth control or fetus sex choice is a dilemma.
9. Women issue
Bar ,   Hertzliya   (12.27.10)
No man in the world has any right to talk about women issues like abortion. What does he understand about it? Nobody thinks about how more tragic may be a bith of a non desired or unexpected child? Tragic for the mother/parents and for the child. And we can't forget about health implications for the mothers.
10. My heart is in knotsā€¦
Ami   (12.27.10)
My grandmother is on life support. The doctors say she will fully recuperate in 9 months. She has been on life support for one month already and has an independently beating heart and brain wave function. All her organs appear to be miraculously regenerating. I argue she is not alive because she is dependent on life support. I keep on telling the doctors she is not even human (don't judge me as cruel), but they remind me she has 48 chromosomes. I want to pull the plug in order to save me emotional and financial trauma, provided it is legal in the state I am living in to pull the plug on someone who will fully recuperate. Why should I have to pay for her when I did not want her (and who gets to choose their own grandmother)? Of course, I could let another family take care of her after the 9 months, but would not every daughter or mother in my situation do the same thing to their own grandmother? My heart is in knots...
11. Oh crickey, he's off again...
Talula ,   Israel   (12.27.10)
Surely it's up to a woman to decide if she should give birth or not - not some loud-mouthed 'spiritual' lime-light seeking Nutcase. Women who have been raped for instance, don't want a lifelong reminder of a trauma, let alone give birth to it. Who is this man and why is he given constant access to a soap box to piss the rest of us off? Seculars 'address' issues, Haredim 'fight' them, why? - that just about says all there is to say about them.
12. #4,8,and11
American Sabrah ,   Givas Shmilkeh   (12.27.10)
As a religous woman, I hold different positions in abortion. In Salma's case, abortion should be encouraged more than polygamy in her society.Forcing child brides to have babies just because their husbands can't control their sexual impulses does a lot more harm to them more than anything. As to the rest of you, abortion is a devastating choice for a woman to make. Most women would rather not be in that unfortunate circumstances. A lot of them regret undergoing the procedure and suffer from PTSD from it as a result.I agree what halacha says that permits abortion in situations where the pregnancy is detrimental to the mother's life and physical/mental health.There are allowances for an abortion with rape victims.I don't think its morally acceptable for a woman to freely have an abortion as she pleases because she doesn't want to pay the consequences for her irresponsibilities.Why punish the fetus for its mother's promiscuous behaviors?How would you react if you found out your teenage daughter is pregnant?Somehow I don't think rushing her to an abortion clinic would teach her anything about responsibilities.Regarding the families financial situation, abortion shouldn't be a first option.If the woman still feels she is unable to support her baby, she should put her child up for adoption. There are many childless couples who would be more than happy to take a healthy baby into their homes. If you feel that you are not in a position to have children, then use birth control or just don't have sex.Part of growing up is not running around and having sex with random strangers.Its all about making responsible decisions like a mature adult.
13. I agree #9
typical male   (12.27.10)
No male doctor should be allowed to perform an abortion. That way we will know which gender is more sadistic.
14. Let us keep in mind
Many of the same people who call the unborn not alive, call the Heiredim parasites, on the pages of Ynetnews.
15. Can someone help me understand Halacha?
Ami   (12.27.10)
Bereishit 9:6 states: "He who spills the blood of a man [person] within a man [person], his blood shall be spilled." (Shofeich Dam HaAdam B'Adam Damo Yishafech). The Talmud applies this to gentiles committing abortion. The Talmud records that fetal development prior to the 40th day is considered "mere water." Thus, it is universally accepted among Rabbonim that a gentile who has an abortion, at least 40 days after conception, is guilty of murder under Noachide law. But in regards to Jews, while it is accepted by the majority of the Rabbonim that abortion is a Torah prohibition, there is no general agreement about which Torah prohibition applies. The four Torah prohibitions advanced in regards to Jews are: murder (retzicha), hashchatat zera (destruction of seed), unjustified act of chavala ("wounding") to either the mother or the unborn, or a violation of the affirmative obligations to protect and preserve life (derived from "lo taamod al dam rayecha" or "hashavat aveida"). The question I have is since the Torah in Bereishit 9:6 calls the unborn in gentiles "man" and not man-in-progress, how can the unborn in Jews possibly not be considered "man," since Jews are descended from Adam, and thus not constitutively different than non-Jews. I understand how the penalties can be different for Jew and gentile, but how can the definition for what constitutes "man" be different? Please help. The only way I have been able to reconcile this dilemma in my own mind is that committing abortion for Jews is murder too (retzicha), but one that does not carry the death penalty similar to the case of killing a tereifah where there is a transgression of lo tirtzach without its corresponding punishment.
16. Replenish
Zichron   (12.27.10)
Reintroduce the Milk and Honey and Bread Subsidies and Humane Free Range Kosher Food.
17. # 10, #11, #9, et. al
justaguy ,   CA, USA   (12.28.10)
Ami, enjoyed your parallel. Thanks. To pro-choicers - The comments that male anatomy renders one less capable of moral judgment is as sexist as it gets . . . and arrogant; your source for the moral authority that governs all behavior is yourself since there's no scripture that condones what you do. I was just looking at a picture of my fat little 4 month old daughter before reading this article. More than ever I recognize how precious the innocent blood of a child is (with or without oxygen [i.e., still in womb] in the lungs). As far as abortion being a difficult decision - There's a reason there's emotional anguish regarding this decision: it is because children are a heavy responsibility and their murder (since they are utterly innocent of any evil) is so terrible that even the worst amongst us must usually lie to ourselves about the severity of abortion, by arguing that the innocent unborn is less human than a lustful, murderous, selfish, etc., adult is. Dehumnanizing the humans with no voice has always been part of every systemic evil committed by man against man, from slavery to holocaust.
18. This reminds me of a true story by Dr. Bill Deagle.
Rivkah   (12.28.10)
When he worked in Canada, a woman who had severe diabetes and was blind from the disease came to him about having a child that was pregnant. He advised her to abort the fetus, but she refused and found another doctor who put her into a hospital for the entire pregnancy until she gave birth to a healthy child. Then she and her husband took the baby to see Dr. Deagle to show him miracles still happen and a blind diabetic could give birth to a healthy child and care for the child, too.
19. 8 Seadog1946: A conceived child belongs to YHWH, not
Rivkah   (12.28.10)
to the biological mother or father. Terminating a pregnancy must be acceptable to YHWH not to the doctors or biological parents. When is terminating a pregnancy acceptable to YHWH? The ancient Hebrews cast off their children when famine or war would make giving birth too terrible for the child. The mother's life being in danger was not a reason for an abortion in the Scriptures since Rachel the Patriarch Jacob's wife died in childbirth rather than to abort a child given to her by God's Ruach HaKodesh. She was not strong like her sister Leah who gave birth more easily. Is incest a valid reason to abort a baby? If so, the Jewish race would not have come into existence since Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister who gave birth to Isaac, an incest baby. Isaac and Rebekah were first cousins and their children were not aborted due to incest fears. The Pharoahs of ancient Egypt were incest babies and usually married a sister. Is rape a valid reason to abort a fetus? If so, then James Robison the tv preacher would not have been born since his mother was raped and gave birth to and kept the child of rape and molded him into a great man of YHWH.
20. 11 Talula, Israel:Speak not evil of the leader of the people
21. 15 Ami: God's people are subject to God's laws.
Rivkah   (12.28.10)
Those who are not YHWH's people are not subject to God's Commandments and laws. God's laws are for His people. Who are God's people? Those who have the Torah written on their hearts. If the Torah is not written on a person's heart the person is not subject to the Torah but is also not eligible for eternal life of their soul.
22. There's an order of a sequence of events.
Sojourner ,   Jerusalem   (12.28.10)
When you speak of the flesh, this is a prime example where the ultra-orthodox comes out. When you say Jewish, Torah and Moses, you know what's been written. Knowing that, if it's taught and promoted, you see the best result. If it's not, you see the undesireable result, abortion of which is one. It's not inconceiveable to work out. Adults have just as well been through these young adult years and for these adults to yearn for a compatible mate in a suitable situation to welcome a child into this world wouldn't be asking too much. It should be able to be accomplished in Zion. Can you do it? The answer should be yes. And at the ate things can be going now, even that may need to be managed. Listen to their excuses and figure others could be falling into the same situations and make adjustments to where that won't be able to be used for an excuse anymore. Then hopefully and God willing, it would be able to be a thing of the past. This is a major hurdle. Of course, it would take serious considerations, involvement and action. And because it is of a religious nature, of the high ethical and moral standards, arrangements in a religious enviroment aren't out of reason. The issue of Yeshiva, children and bread off of the sweat of thy brow till dust come up.
23. doctors and test fail
miri ,   israel   (12.28.10)
these test are not 100%, I know 3 women that were told to abort there children. not 1 not 2 but 3 and they all had heathy happy babys and they had all the test done
24. So do false Torah additions! Kill a nation.
Josh   (12.28.10)
Sad mothers would do such but it is very familiar to Torah curses. Choose death curses promise mothers will do such. Maybe the false additions and corruption of power hungry leadership have everything to do with choose death torah being in a land where curses are fast becoming best friends with us?
25. 6: There would be no tribe of Benjamin if the mother's
Rivkah   (12.28.10)
health was justification for an abortion since Rachel the Patriarch Jacob's wife was frail and died in childbirth. YHWH knew how frail she was and was reluctant to let her conceive but she had Joseph and then Benjamin, dying when the latter was born. The Hispanics have a greater respect for life and the unborn than other races so YHWH is giving them the SouthWest of America and many other places and driving out those who abort their babies. The Hispanics have such a respect for the life of the unborn that even the rape of a ten year old in Tulare County years ago that led to conception. The child gave birth to a baby who was then adopted. Abortion was not an option. Was that cruel? No to the infant who wanted to be born. I have never met an adopted child who was not thankful for being born. None of them wished they had been aborted, whatever the circumstances of the conception.
26. 10 year old mom raped
Danya ,   Israel   (12.28.10)
That poor ten year old rape victim, whose religous morality preached the life of the child more important than her own. She is lucky to have survived the birth. Did she get to finsh the fourth grade, or is she a full-time mom now instead of completing elementary school? Many thousands of girls and young women die in childbirth after being denied abortions following rape and incest. I'd like to see their religous leaders take responsibility for their deaths, and care for the orphans they leave behind.
27. Amused by all the Christians attempting to readjust Judaism
AOS ,   Lower Galilee   (12.28.10)
in order to suit them and their Christianity! It is easy to tell which of the posters are Christian they are the ones who are pushing for an all encompassing policy regarding abortion and/or attempting to interpret Torah Text in a free style manner without using the Talmud! To all the Christian posters your comments are all incorrect go back and try again!
28. Simple question poster in #27
I-am-who-I-am   (12.29.10)
Are there generally too many or too few abortions in Israel? If you are such a Talmid Chacham explain to us what you mean by your comment, for you yourself could be a secular Jew posing as religious. Also, you are wrong in assuming posters are xian, since this is an Israeli site, you should apply the principle of the majority, and assume all posters are Jewish. Thus, you are missing an opportunity to teach Jews. For instance is there is a blanket allowance to abort the product of rapes or incest? How severe does the impairment of the mental health of a mother have to be (i.e. does the mother have to be on the verge of suicide) to allow an abortion? To let us know where you are coming from, in your opinion which Torah prohibition(s) are involved with abortion? If the unborn are livimg persons, which Rav Yosef confirms, how could abortion involve the prohibition of wasting seed, or wounding the child short of murder? It is true that every time one kills a person it is not necessarily murder such as in warfare and capital punishment but Noahide law regards those as not murder either. So explain a case where a murder in one system is not regarded as murder in the other? For instance how is throwing a person in a den of lions or a pit of snakes regarded in both systems? If abortion is not regarded as murder in Judaism what is the additional principle or law found in Judaism but not Noahide law that makes it not murder for Jews?
29. The shedding of innocent blood
Eliyahu Konn ,   Powell, OH   (12.29.10)
When there is blood and no threat of impending death to the mother it is called murder.
30. #20 Are you being serious? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaa
Talula ,   Israel   (12.29.10)
The leader here, at the moment is Bibi.
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