Israel is the only countrythat oppresses a population and they call themselves the victim. The overuse of the antisemitism accusation to silence legitimate criticism trivializes the suffering of the Jewish people over the centuries. If Israel is worried their image, stop imprisoning, torturing and killing Palestinians. Stop attacking unarmed people when they try to help the people of Gaza.

Good debate so far. Meltzer states in #49: "In fact I believe it is 100% the opposite, namely a strong, healthy and thriving Israel is what protects Jews living in the Diaspora and not the other way around." If all Jews made aliyah, by what practical mechanism would this make Israel stronger? Diaspora Jews are just as confused as Israeli Jews. I understand this might win us Divine favor, but things are uncertain because there is no prophet in Israel. Perhaps you can explain in a future article, the precise, scientific mechanism that this will make Israel stronger. Theories: it would diminish reliance on the Arab vote in the Labor party, it prevents assimilation for former Diaspora Jews whose long term survivability in the Diaspora is doubtful, American Jews know democratic principles absent in Israel that could reform Israel's governmental system, immigration of scientists from the Diaspora would be helpful. I agree the blessing of Jews in Israel protects Jews in the Diaspora on some spiritual level, but what practical steps has Israel taken to protect Jews in the Diaspora besides acting as a sponge for anti-Semitism, and if Israel is taking practical steps to protect Diaspora Jews how come assimilation is so high in the Diaspora? Diaspora Jews are still waiting for the letter from Israel in their mailboxes that shows any personal concern. And if Israel cares about the interests of Diaspora Jews so much, how come it is planning on surrendering the Jews patrimonial heritage? I want to distance myself from comments that Jews should remain in galut. It is a mitvah to make aliyah. But the phenomenon of Jews remaining in the Diaspora is spiritually understandable and gives me some comfort. It was Yacov who formed two camps when he feared his brother Esau on the return to Israel. In the same way, if Iran and Arabs destroys Israel (G-d forbid), there is another camp in the Diaspora who will survive. It is like during the Holocaust, for example when the Nazis asked Rabbis if the Karaites were Jewish, they responded no so the Karaites would not suffer the same fate. Tahl in post #56 states: "I even suggested that Israelis should emigrate to America to strengthen the dying Jewish community there." You might have a point in regards to Rabbis, who should return for a couple of years to America to strengthen the Diaspora. I know for a fact that this is happening, though I do not know how many. Besides leaders of Hasbara organizations and Rabbis though, I see no reason other Jews should return to American temporarily. In fact Israel arguably has the opposite problem where Israeli companies and business men emigrate to America to the seeming detriment of Israel.

"enlighten criticism" Look Gaza was not a massacre it was a war in response to 8 years of shelling Israeli cities. Like in all wars there is collateral damage. When Palestinian Terrorists shoot from behind women and Children the results can be catastrophic. When you will love your children more than you Hate Israel and don't send them in suicide missions, then maybe things will change. Since 1947 Israel is in a constant survival stage. Never again anybody is going to take the Jews as sheep to the slaughter house. Hamas finally accepted that half of the death in Gaza were "Hamas Fighters" 2. The Mavi Marmara. We saw the films how the "peaceful Passengers" Receive the IDF soldiers. We saw how the Captain of the ship wanted to accept the Naval commando’s orders and a group of terrorists took him below and took command of the ship ("declared by the Captain of the Mavi Marmara")Why there was no problems with the other ships? because there was a plan to create chaos. We saw pictures taken by passengers of the ship way before the incident ,many of the Turkish terrorists pledge for martyriumdom shouting "Allah Akbar".The whole thing was a planed provocation. 3. Ethnic cleansing in 1947? Was what Jordanians did in 1948 when entering the Old City of Jerusalem. The first Refugees of that war were the Jews living in Several Neighborhoods of East Jerusalem and the Old City were 42 Synagogues were destroyed. The commander of the Jordanian Army Claimed."Finally the city is clean of Jews. Ethnic cleansing is what Abbas announced 4 days ago when he said no Israeli presence in Future Palestine. So why should Israel accept any Palestinian Refugees? By his own tongue he will condemn himself. 4. 750.000 is an inflated Number according to the UNRAW the number is 700.000. Besides these people were just Arabs., not Palestinians. Palestinians were all the citizens of the English Mandate. Including the Jews. The partition of Palestine was to create an Arab state and a Jewish State. It does not mention a Palestinian State. Ahmed Shukeyry said around 1959 "there is no Palestinian Nation all is Part of the Great Syrian Nation. King Abdalla of Jordan did not want a Palestinian state or for the matter another Arab state, that is why he annexed the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Gave Jordanian Identification and passports to all the people of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. 4. If one third of them fled before hostilities started, which I think is a lie, it was because the Arab armies asked them to leave so they can throw the Jews to the sea. Arabs started to terrorize the Jews before May 1948 not the other way around. On the Other hand the English until the last moment of the Mandate were disarming the Jews and preparing the Jordanians for the invasion. Abu Pasha an English officer converted was the creator of the Jordanian Legion. 5. Discrimination.? 4 Arab parties sit in the Israeli Parliament Bashing Israel and praising for it's destruction. You think that is discrimination? 1'250.000 Arab Israelis enjoy full rights not only in Parliament but also in government posts and in the Judicial System. You think that is racial discrimination? You know how many Arab Israelis constitute the Medical Force in Israel? I myself have an Arab Israeli dentist. You think this is Racial discrimination. 6. Israel had to fight 4 wars of annihilation imposed on her. Israel was not the aggressor, That is a Fact. Arabs did not accept the Partition Plan and since then waged wars and Antifadas. 7. This Anti Zionist sentiment is pure Anti-Semitism. The same thing happen in Germany when Nazis aroused to power in the 30's Jews were blamed for everything. Now Israelis are monsters, but suicide bombers are not mentioned, terror attacks either from terrorist Palestinian Organizations. 8. It is not the Land that have made Israel a Nation of Nations is it's people. 9.Palestinians are what they are not because of Israel

Sjoerd, There is a difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism but the sad fact is that the vast, vast majority of the "anti-Zionists" are simply Jew haters hiding behind a slightly different label. When these same "anti-Zionists" are completely silent against widespread outrageous human rights abuses that occur all over the world but demonize Israel constantly they are Jew haters. It's really that simple.

As our dialogue unfolds, I think it's becoming clear that we actually agree on the problem (a lack of clarity as to our true purpose here in Israel, or as you put it "I think we are discussing the present extent of the confusion") but perhaps we differ regarding what should be done in order to overcome the confusion. Perhaps our difference is similar to the argument between the western medicine approach and the natural medicine approach ("the simple act of taking a pill" versus "the difficult act of getting to the root of the problem and changing one's lifestyle"). Or perhaps in the realm of halacha, the bedi'avad versus lechatchila (dealing with "after the fact" situations versus the ideal of what should be in the first place). When I look at stuff this way, I think what I'm trying to do is to get to the source of the problem in order to affect a meaningful change. I'm not interested in continuing along in a bedi'avad situation, which has been the situation of the Jews for far too many years. Moreover, I fully believe that unless we change our whole mindset and consciousness and break out of the bedi'avad mode, the problems (terror, wars, etc) will just continue. Hence, this line of thinking can be seen in many of my articles on this site (for example, Time to free ourselves, The Jewish identity, Overcoming the rift, Towards a Jewish mindset, Why make aliyah?, The aliyah mindset). I think you're approach, which has some truth to it, is just maintaining the bedi'avad mode. This of course is okay as long as it is seen as a means to a goal and not the goal itself. In other words, unless there is a clear consciousness of the lechatchila mode and the measures in the Diaspora are seen as temporary in order to arrive at the real goal, then the actions in the Diaspora just perpetuate the never-ending and problematic bedi'avad situation.

Thank you for your comments. Please see what I just wrote to Solomon because I think some of it is also relevant here. Regarding the question of how, practically speaking, aliyah would make Israel stronger, I think you stated some very cogent points. Regarding your sentence, "And if Israel cares about the interests of Diaspora Jews so much, how come it is planning on surrendering the Jews patrimonial heritage?", this certainly applies to what I wrote to Solomon. If we in Israel, especially our leaders, are confused as to our true purpose here, then giving away our land is what unfortunately happens. Regarding what you wrote about rabbis returning for a couple of years to America to strengthen a dying community, it depends. If their goal is to strengthen the identity of the Jews in the Diaspora as a precursor for them eventually joining us here in our national undertaking, then that is fine. However, if they are strengthening the Jewish community in America (or anywhere else in the Diaspora) in order for them to simply remain as is in the Diaspora, then this is problematic.

I disagree post #59 that anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism are different. Did you read my comment in post #46? Jealousy of Jewish exeptionalism was the decisive factor in the Nazis' War against the Jews. Did you know the majority of Palestinian Arabs supported Zionism at the start of the Palestine Mandate because they wanted the development it would bring? Later on, there was a mass exodus of Arab elites from the Mandated Palestine (an incident I have never heard anyone mention) that helped radicalize things. The same hatred of success that forced Arab elites to leave, I argue, as applied to Jews, is anti-Semitism. One example, Jewish settlers bought the worst land, and made it bloom. This instilled hatred in anti-Semitic Arabs though Jewish settlement improved the quality of life of the Arabs. They came up with all sorts of pseudo arguments to justify their animus. There is no rational link between Zionism and colonialism. Feisal welcomed the Jews home in his letter to Frankurter. Haj Amin al Husseini owed his appointment as Mufti of Jerusalem to British colonialists. Arabs countries gained their freedom through British colonialism, so how can colonialism taint Zionism but not the Arabs? Another factor of Arab anti-Semitism is that they believe in replacement theology -- they not the Jews inherit the G-d given promise to the Land of Israel. Arabs also had strong ties to the Nazis. It is undisputable that the Arabs tried to commit genocide against Israel just a few years after the Holocaust, and then proceeded to expel Jews from their countries (Jews in Iraq mind you were non-Zionist so what ties did they have to Israel except religion or race?). I like to hear you respond to these arguments post #59. Regarding you argument that anti-Semitism applies to Arabs, Merriam-Webster defines it as exclusively applying to Jews, so your attempt to redefine the term is not supported.

Otherwise, you'd have seen how it addresses the point you raised, and explains well why the worldwide Israel-bashing is not "self-pity" but a genuine, well-merited concern . But it appears you won't let the solid points raised here get in the way of your ready-made agenda. Instead of regurgitating the same old worn-out slogans ("overuse of the antisemitism accusation") and trivialized disinformation ("stop imprisoning, torturing and killing Palestinians"), I dare you read deeply into this article and try to respond directly to the author's arguments. Can you? Or can you only recycle old slogans?

peace is when Arabs murder Jews. War is when Jews defend themselves.

If coming Volontarily on Ones own volition, One will also have Ones own Posessions and Treasuries with Oneself - But - Forced to Flee and Leave, One will be Broke when doing it. Comment - Waiting to long can also have this Result - http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4005687,00.html Orao.

articulate, psychologically oriented, response. I would just like to mention that that (the question of antisemitism) was the thrust of Sigmund Freud's last monumental work, "Moses and Monotheism". He completed it in England in 1939 while undergoing painful cancer of the jaw as a response to the harrowing antisemitism taking place in Europe after he was forced into exile from his home in Vienna. David Bakan, a Canadian professor of psychology, wrote an extraordinary response and critique of Freud's work which the interested reader might also find of value.

this article for the intelligent responses and enriching debates which have taken place. Rarely have I read anything as provocative, informative and respectful on a forum such as this one. I have read many, however, which are drab, one-sided, unthinking or simply outrightly vituperative. It does help when the writer of the piece (in this case, Yoel Meltzer) takes an active role in discussion. I wish more authors and journalists followed up.

The characterization that Palestinian Arabs are poor and oppressed and Israel is rich, a European invasion, begrudging land to the Palestinian Arabs is stock and trade of anti-Zionism. But aversion to Jewish exceptionalism is anti-Semitism. The 2 terms are the same.

The Diaspora usually reacts to events. This is "dealing with after the fact situations" by definition. I feel this is needed. I would like to see more proaction from both Israel and the Diaspora. If we resolve our confusion, all well and good. But I don't see all Jews abandoning the Diaspora for Israel. Although Israel gives the Diaspora strength, and there are those who will come to live there (kol ha'kavod!), for all Jews to live there would be abandoning the rest of the world. We need to be involved on a day to day level with the rest of the world, at least to some degree. Otherwise we are locking ourselves in a closet. To be with the rest of the world and try to improve upon it is what Judaism is all about. It can also be a safety for a time when (G-d forbid) the world might again lean towards anti-semetism whether Israel and Jews resolve the confusion or not.

Salomon in post #74 states: "for all Jews to live there [in Israel] would be abandoning the rest of the world." This is another brilliant point. Here is a proposal: Israel should send an expert in Noachide law to every major city in the United States to teach it to the ordinary people, and Israelis should establishment a lobbying firm in Washington D.C. and in the capital city of every state in America to suggest improvements to American law and educational reform that will stop America's decline, making it more productive, democratic and more moral. The latter suggestion is on the path towards actualization. The Israel-American Renaissance Institute with a distinguished board was just founded with a similar purpose. Check it out. I want to thank Robert Haymond in #72. Just think if the Government of Israel had a coordinated debate on the wisdom of a Palestinian State between Knesset members and the Israeli public and Diaspora Jews, instead of leading the people by the nose. What brilliance would come to the fore!!

I noticed your name is Solomon not Salomon.

#75- You will be happy to hear that the gist of your suggestion happens already. Jews, along with others, tend to support causes that are for the benefit of society. They are against discriminatory laws and tend to support educational and societal reform. #76- No offense intended nor taken.

I don't like it. Torah states G-d's eyes are always on the land. We are not getting away with shuffling around responsibility for what goes on here that is against Torah, G-d and what is good and right in His eyes. Possibly the punctuation as vile as it is can be explained in the choose life and choose death struggle that we refuse to take up against our brothers. We cannot be like those who supported OJ simply because of race. If disporah Jews want to do anything, don't challenge the curses, challenge you brothers to be better. You shall remove evil from you midst means some are good and some ar bad and the bad are not allowed to get away with it. Adding to Torah is a sin. Lets celar up the confusion among our brothers as to what words came from G-d and legitimate prophets. Choose life, I remind.

A proper response to you Solomon in post #77 would take an analysis of all groups U.S. Jews belong to, which I obviously have not done. I see that the Jewish national project I proposed in post #75 would have advantages, namely: Would you want this effort backed up by a 400 billion dollar organization or the budgets currently? Would you want groups to have a unified message or disparate messages? Would you want a group that transcends U.S. politics or groups that cannot help but be a product of their environment? Everyone knows Israel has superior Torah: so do you want superior Torah or weaker Torah? It would give the Chereidi in Israel who study all day an important job as emissaries of Israel. The best benefit though of the Jewish national project I proposed would be collateral: If it was all done under the auspices of Israel, then U.S.'s assessment of the importance of the State of Israel would magnify manifold, and the U.S. would do everything in its power to enact policies that would ensure a vibrant Israel. This in turn would boost Israel, and give it the ability to help out the world even more.

Israelis should establish a lobbying firm in Washington DC and other cities in the US to show Americans how to run their country better? What I find most interesting in your proposal, is the fact that you are actually being completely serious... .i.e. you are not making fun of Israelis, and their inflated egos. Do you realise how incredibly patronising you sound?

it would greatly magnify America's perception of Israel's importance? ?? I give up. The cultural difference between Israelís and Anglo Saxons must be unbridgeable. Non -Jewish Europeans have their own proud heritage and endless list of scientific achievements. and contributions to the world. The pre-Christian Greeks and Romans had a far far bigger influence on European civilisation than anyone else. The Jews are a clever people, but so are the people you are trying to impress by ''helping'' them. Good luck with this 100% totally misguided proposal. I read somewhere that Jews are immensely talented but are congenitally incapable of doing good PR. Amen to that!

First, please reread #81. It is spot on. And patronizing, as said in #80 Jews are not "chosen" so that we are better than anyone else. We are chosen to try harder so we can become a 'light unto the nations'. There seems to be some confusion in this word "chosen". We rightfully are proud of our accomplishments and tell those boycotting Israeli products to stop using their cellphones, etc. But there are a LOT of discoveries, products, inventions that are NOT because of Jews. If Israel tried to tell the US what to do it would react the same way we would: Get lost! What chutspah. Please spare me sentences beginning with "Everyone knows". Everyone does not know; there are too many individuals in the world; too many differences, both good and bad. (And I am not as interested in superior Torah as I am in a superior work ethic.) As far as your #82, that is beneath you. It is a cop out when there is nothing to answer with. And it denigrates those who participate, especially those you don't agree with. Thanks to all of you, agreeing or not. I'm off to other TB's.

Solomon, in post #77 responding to post #75, you made no mention of any insult and your comments were productive. Then another person in post #80 made a discriminatory, blanket comment mocking Israeli culture. I am in my right to call that anti-Semitism, and it was not intended to shut down debate as I planned on making another substantive comment (see last paragraph below). The proposal I took a stab at in #75 was for a future time when all Diaspora Jews would be Israeli. Notice I used "Israeli" not Israel in post #75 [since it must not be state-run Hasbara which is not necessarily truthful, but derived from scientific method and debate]. So the comment in post #80 was a misreading of my opinion, before it ventured into discrimination against an ethnic group. Regarding post #79, I freely admit much of that comment was off base. It was an initial crack at a difficult subject and postulated on events too far off in the future when science would be as accessible as grass. Solomon, none of the things that you accuse me of in post #83 reflect my opinion (I have made near identical comments in the past on Ynetnews), except I am rightly proud of the diligence of Torah study in Israel (and if this is not an issue for you, why take offense?). Take a step back from the specifics in post #79 and see what I was trying generally to convey. The gist of what I was saying is that in a future time where all Diaspora Jews made aliyah, Israel should still take an active interest in the rest of the world, as you convinced me of by your previous comments, and this will have the collateral effect of boosting Israel's security. Here is the substantive comment I had planned to leave, for the benefit of Meltzer going forward: "It seems Meltzer and Solomon's opinions are both correct to an extent. At present time, as long as Israel's security remains threatened it has to be primarily insular. Though a blessing to civilization, the technology Israel has developed has been generally non-descript, which avoids attention. But if all Diaspora Jews made aliyah with a strong contingent remaining behind as emissaries of Israel, Israel's security would presumably no longer be threatened for the reason discussed in post #79. Israel would have no reason to remain insular. As long as America would continue to bless Israel, we would be there for it. This is the highest state of Judaism, as Noah was not fully righteous by our standards for being too insular, but our patriarch Abraham pleaded for those even in Sodom in Gomorrah, and is said in the Midrash to have even visited and been concerned with Yishmael's wellbeing, even after he kicked him out of his household. "

I appreciate your clarifications and wanted you to know that they were read. I understand you, I think, better than before. I agree that if, in a future time where all Diaspora Jews made aliyah, Israel should still take an active interest in the rest of the world. I'm not sure that all Diaspora Jews should make aliya, however. Most 'anti-Israeli' is anti-semitism, granted. In my opinion, however, #80 is one of those rare instances that the comment was not blanket anti-semitism. I took the comment in #80 as one of those not-so-true stereotypes that all countries have. (Think Germans, French, etc.. Americans are said to want quick solutions and if they are not forthcomng, then 'on to the next thing'. etc.) I did not take offence at your comment about the diligence of Torah. I take offence whenever I read "Everybody knows". You heard my frustration that stems from many instances of reading those words. My apologies, as those feelings should have been directed to others as well. I appreciate this give and take. We probably agree on much, but still disagree on some. That is as it should be. May HaShem bless you with Peace, Health and Happiness. Adieu.

My comment about inflated ego's was written when I was feeling insulted about the idea that I, as a non-Jew, should be ''taught'' the Noahide laws by Israelis in order to make me more ''moral'' ( I'm paraphrasing here a bit). If Mar wants to ''preach'' to me about the Noahide laws, he is welcome. I might not take much notice but I certainly wont be offended or feel insulted by a preacher or a missionary ''Teaching'' is different from preaching. Teaching implies imparting superior knowledge to the ignorant. ''Preaching'' implies trying to convince the skeptical I apologise for my comment about ''Israeli inflated ego''. I'm not antisemitic. I read most of the comments here with interest and look forward to a time when all cultures have a far better understanding of each other.

Shalom shalom and hatzlocho Solomon on your ventures in the United States. When you complete your holy mission there, you should consider returning to Israel. "I understand you, I think, better than before." If people understood each other, there would be no sinat chinam. I tremble when I see two people not understanding each other. I apologize for not making my comments readily understandable. Regarding agreement, there is an expression or perhaps I am making this up: when two Jews approach each other they come away with three opinions.

I accept that you are not anti-Semitic. Check out the book Start-Up Nation. Firstly, it explains in what way Israel is a success, giving per capita comparisons with other countries [Yes America is the leader, then Israel is second or third...]. It goes on to argue the cultural traits that people view as a deficit have been a component in Israel's success [ego to you is chutzbah to them]. The actual reasons for Israel's success are more complex than the book presents. For instance, the role of the government is not fully explored. But like any book, you have to start somewhere. As a Jew, here is my Noahide message to you: Knee jerk support by Americans for Israeli policies is bad, since I argue it is leading Israel to the prim-rose path to its own destruction. A Palestinian state cannot be demilitarized and will not bring peace but war. President Bush agreed to a Palestinian state in August 2001 due to Saudi threats or prodding as I profusely documented in Meltzer previous article Thank you, Tom Friedman. Call up the Israeli embassy and tell that you as a non-Jewish secular American think Israeli policy in endorsing a Palestinian state does not make sense. Don't be insulting but give them cogent reasons. Regarding the Noachide suggestion in post #75, there is a group of people in America who have abandoned traditional Christianity, but turn to cults because they do not realize there are better options. In addition, there is no organization or support structure for Noachides in America. In part, this is because Noahide does not believe in institutionalized religion or group prayer. In case you are wondering what possible application could the Noahide law about not eating flesh from a living animal could be: an example is not eating testicles from a castrated bull. Every time that an animal rights activist does not eat it, he is fulfilling Noahide law whether he is conscious of Noahide law or not, whether he has read the Bible or not.

We are still not understanding one another. Regarding post #86, since there is no conversion to Noahide, I argue it is inappropriate to call Jews teaching Noahide law evangelism. Calling it evangelism would imply it is equivalent to Christian evangelism, when the latter demands conversion, while the former does not. When the Jewish Temple was standing, it is my understanding that there never was a conversion to Noahide outside the Land of Israel. The Ger Toshav conversion in the Land of Israel involved no rituals and was a just a test administered by the most educated people at the time in order to determine if a non-Jew would be able to assimilate in a Jewish commonwealth. Noahide at its basic level is nothing but logic applied to one's personal life and governance. The best place to learn it is to major in the hard sciences at a university. In my personal opinion, that that is where teaching takes place; the liberal arts department on campuses is where the evangelism takes place, no offense intended; the rule of thumb I have is that if the students are the ones teaching the class it is not teaching. The Rabbis in my proposal in #75 are nothing but "Indian spirit guides." Scientists should also be employed in the "Nohide centers" proposed in post #75 either flown in from Israel or, if it is permitted by the U.S. Constitution and applicable federal law, in partnership with local universities. In post #80, you derived a principle in Noahide law using your intellect. Specifically, it is a general principle taught to the Jewish people from Sinai that Jews and non-Jews are to treat each other in law reciprocally. My Noahide message in #88 was the application of this principle to my proposal in #75. Noahide is much more appropriate than the 10 commandments. Noahide Law requires no affirmative belief in G-d. Science is approaching the conclusion that there is no direct proof G-d exists in this world, nor any other universe. If tomorrow we saw Zeus riding a Pegasus, it proves nothing. Science demands replication. I proffer that this is the logic behind the law in Judaism that Jews are not to accept miracles as proof. I am not implying you should convert to Judaism, that would be repugnant. Rather Judaism has Noahide law as its foundation plus other laws in addition. Noahide does have a law that one is not to curse G-d. I proffer that the logic behind this law is why would someone curse something that one does not know if it exists? What benefit would one gain by cursing "G-d." It could be a detriment because it creates social tension with those in society who do believe in G-d. In one extreme this prohibition in Noahide law helps prevent wars based on religion. A Noahide in one tribe is not to compel another tribe to observe Noahide law. In a single tribe, it is to be enforced by courts, not individuals. It can thus never be the source of war.

Sorry , I have only just noticed your two lengthy and very interesting posts. The explanation of Noahide is very interesting and dispels my initial misgivings about the religious aspects of the project. Americans believe that America invented everything I'm not sure how they would treat Istitutes from another country inventing things for them. Probably by renaming your Israeli institutes , ''American institutes'' !.......thanks I gotta hit the sack now, Goodnight from NZ