"Kobi Arieli, a popular radio host and author from the liberal edge of the haredi community." What does it mean to be a "liberal" Haredi? You only have eight children, instead of twelve? You think perhaps *some* secular Jews may not go to hell?

in Jiffy Pop time their men will run to work like the dickens. Their women will tell them in no uncertain terms that its time to man up and provide for their families. As far as these bogus Rabbis are concerned, once the welfare stops, thats the end of their power. Yiddishkeit is not hiding behinds a womens skirt and shirking ones responsibility as a man and a provider.

To match Haredi population growth, you need more than 3% rise in Haredim joining the IDF and the workforce each year. Not until they all accept the same rights and responsibilities as all Israelis can they make a useful contribution to Israel. We know the peace process won't go anywhere anytime soon. Let's wait for the Palestinians to come to us, and instead focus on Israel's domestic problems. The whole Knesset can work together on integrating Haredim into Israel, and when it happens, when the whole world sees Israel united, the Palestinians will probably surrender anyway.

While I am against so many not working nor serving in the army, we at least have to thank them for maintaining us as a majority against the Arabs. If it weren't for the chareidim and other Orthodox Jews, we Jews would have already been a minority here. In other words, even though there are chareidim who are against the State, it is them who are keeping us a Jewish State. The secular usually have small families, if they have children at all. Many remain single and provide no Jewish children for future generations. That is not good either.

or you'll be the ruin of us.

If they lived in their own "ghettos" without taking part of Israeli politics and without taking stipends from the state the problem would have been smaller. But the try to change the Israeli society by coercing their way of life on others. They decide for the rest of us whether we'll go to war or not when they themselves don't serve in the army. They live on the money earned by Israelis that work. As a woman I'm terrified that what looks rediculous to us now - like buses with segregation, like women dressing up like muslims in Iran, like women's singing being forbidden etc., will become the general, horrible, primitive reality in Israel in the near future.

Take a look this URL (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3920511,00.html) and you will understand why the Haredim reject the State. One very very important comment that needs to be made. The Jewish people are Kodesh (from Mea Shearim to North Tel Aviv). The state on the other hand is treif.

They ensure our birthrate keeps up with that of the non-Jews in Israel. If it weren't for them, there would be no Israel within two decades.

I am not Haredi, nor am I Rabbinical Orthodox. But, although Haredim do not serve that much in the IDF ( as also Tel Avivis are avoiding it), they are fighting another war that the secular left are not - the demographic war. The secular left are making projections of a demographic threat - but this isnt actually correct. The religous zionists - who r not haredi, and also serve in high proportion in the army, and work , are also having high birth rate. Of course, they are even more vilified than the haredim are..

too bad you can't take their kids and cut off their pais, give them non kosher food, make them work on shabbat, attend secular schools, and deny jobs to their parents if they don't comply. Too bad this could never happen in Israel

Israel is more likely to collapse within itself than external wars. The haredim pose a strategic threat to the State. You cannot have a growing component of the population living separately who live in a fantasy word. Why talk about the Irainian bomb, the real threat is on the door step.

To hear seculars whingeing in talkbacks about the haredi threat is old hat, but to see it plastered across the page as a headline? It warms the cockles of me 'eart. In a more serious tone: at least you know where you're going. The tide has now turned and it won't be long now before your Zionist ideal will be a museum piece, perhaps relegated to a show-kibbutz, left intact to show future generations how a few lunatics thought they could destroy Judaism and socially engineer a secular state.

...loshon hora??? This repeat diatribe is getting sick! B"H for the Haredi

"They ensure our birthrate keeps up with that of the non-Jews in Israel. If it weren't for them, there would be no Israel within two decades. " WITH them, there will be no Israel within two decades. Israeli economists are already predicting Israel's economic collapse within a generation if they don't get off the welfare rolls - and they aren't going anywhere.

Yes, observer, that's right - you and your fanatic friends keep crowing about the impending demise of Zionism, as you topple headlong, like lemmings, over that cliff. That you'll be taking all of Orthodoxy with you doesn't trouble me. That you'll be taking Israel as well - that only bothers me a little.

Once YOU make Aliyah as I did can you talk about Israel as if you are part life here. If you are so concerned about the demographics of Israel then do something about it like move here, raise a family here.

if the country would set up its "jewish" state, what the world would certainly(!) accept, there wouldnt be the demographic-"issue" anymore... if israel would define its borders, make the legal part "jewish", then there was no need anymore, to get in pseudo-jews for demographic and cannon-fodder-use... and why dont you ? BECAUSE OF THE SETTLEMENTS ! imo, the haredim are an important part of israel. they keep and preserve traditions and religion. they give the secular, which often feel bad, because they are secular, (imo), the feeling, that nothing gets lost. they contribute with this much to the society. but - probably they have to contribute also in some monetary way... not only, because every shekel goes into tear-gas-cannisters - BECAUSE OF THE SETTLEMENTS ! do away with the settlements, and sort out the place - jmho. this will take millstones from the peoples shoulders... the haredim become a "side-battlefield" because of all the other (unsecure) stuff... they are no threat to the country, jmho all.

How can you forget something you never knew?

Will you thank them for making Israel into a small Saudi Arabia, the incredibly damaging brain drain, and finally economic collapse?

They do not accept the rules of the game - equal work, equal pay and equal duties. They said, 'No, we have a special status in which we do not work and we do not pay taxes and we do not defend the country; you defend it for us. Well guess what we have had enough !

There are plans now to wean them off welfare, each year a bit more. The State of Israel cannot afford to support such growing numbers of people who refuse to work. There are already several projects giving them job training and help getting jobs. Little by little, the men are beginning to work. Don't forget that many if not most of the women work. But, I, too, agree that without them and their many children we will not be a Jewish State for much longer. If you don't have children, you don't have a future. Seculars should stop whining and start making babies!

for the good news that the haredi population is, thank G-d, rising. With the inflation of haredim and religious Jews in Israel, secular who are probably the minority by now, will sooner than later pick themselves up and leave. Can’t wait!

Better alternative:May the secular discover the value of the Tora.

WHY SHOULD THEY WORK WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO? THEY ARE THE TRUE ISRAELI 5TH COLUMN. THEY BREED WITH NO RESPECT FOR OVERPOPULATED HUMANITY, WITH NO MORAL COMPASS FOR THE WORLD THEY BURDEN WITH THEIR BEGGARY AND DENIAL OF THEIR NEEDED SERVICE TO THE STATE THAT SHELTERS AND PROTECTS THEM...NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD DOES THE HEREDI HAVE SUCH A FREE RIDE. . WHY SHOULD I WORK SO SOME ZEALOT WORSHIPPING HIS IDEA OF FAITH DOES NOT WORK AND I AM FORCED TO SUPPORT HIM? WHAT THE HEAVENS IS GOING ON HERE...? A RELIGIOUS ELITE THAT MUST BE CARRIED ON OTHERS SOLDIERS....

According to the Torah, Haredim can and should serve in the military if they are not freshly married, don't have a new house, or if they aren't scared for their lives. You know, something along those lines according to the Torah. I feel good they are praying to HaShem. I wish them long life and prosperity. On that note, some Haredim need to organize themselves into businessmen and provide jobs for other Jews. They need to get with the commerce program too.

It means he wants to see a change in his community of more orthodox men joinning the army & working.