Opinion  Sever Plocker
Who’s afraid of democracy?
Sever Plocker
Published: 31.01.11, 00:48
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1. Just like Iran
daat y ,   israel   (01.31.11)
Naivete. The U.S. helped take down the Shah of Iran and look what Carter brought the "democratic " Ayotollahs!
2. No, Egypt is not ready
Daniel ,   Formerly Israel   (01.31.11)
The author says it is impossible to judge the strength of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, but there is no other major opposition force to Mubarak in Egypt. Who else will come to power in his place if not they? The Iranian people in the 70s were much more liberal and pro-israeli than the Egyptian people are today, and they never even got a chance to elect a a government democratically. The Turks were more liberal still, and yet it is too soon to say whether they will ever be able to remove the Islamist government currently ruling them, democratically or otherwise. As much as we may wish they were, the Egyptians are simply not ready for democracy.
3. Intellectual illiteracy
Thomas ,   Dixieland USA   (01.31.11)
The Western "Democracy" is the outgrow of the 18th. Century Enlightenment - or put this way, it's an evolutionary step that rooted in the "Enlightenment". Russia had no "Enlightenment" period in its history, it remained absolute monarchy, hence Western type Democracy never took roots there. It was and is under the rule of a "strong man": this is the only way it can be governed. The Arab-Muslim world had neither Voltaire nor had "Royal Society of London" and similar institutions. Therefore "Democracy" "δημοκρατία" is alien to the Islamic culture and this trite evocation of the word is unsubstantiated. It's only a mantra to make us look beautiful and nice, a.k.a "cool".
4. afraid of losing peace with Egypt?
Sami H ,   Jerusalem   (01.31.11)
Had Israel accepted the Arab peace initiative that's been sitting on the table since 2002 they would have had a peace treaty with every single Arab country and would not be worried about losing their one and only peace treaty now. 60 years and Israel is still feeling like a foreign organ implant!? too bad.
5. Mr. Plocker is comparing apples to oranges
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (01.31.11)
His comparison countries are not Muslim nor are they Arab. The chances of Egypt or any other Arab country becoming a democracy is about the same as me becoming the Chief Rabbi. There will rise another fascist Islamic dictatorship.
6. Good reason to worry
Mikey ,   SomeWhere OverHere   (01.31.11)
Secular liberal democrats also helped bring down the Shah, no doubt a repressive dictator, and linked arms with the Islamists in 1979. Then the Islamists slaughtered them, or drove them into exile or underground.
7. Who’s afraid of democracy
Rina ,   Haifa, Israel   (01.31.11)
There is no real democracy in Muslim world and will not be at least in the close future. I am not doubt, that many people in Muslim countries wants to have democracy and social security like many Western countries have, but I hardly doubt their religious bosses will let them have it. Democracy and Islam didn't fit together, because they belong to different centuries. I want to ask you Mr. Ploker, who gave you right to talk from behalf of people in Israel. What you wrote in your article it's your own opinion and nothing else. Why you think we afraid if democracy would won in Egypt? If Egypt can really be a democratic country, we will be happy. But maybe because you confuse democracy with election for the leader? It's not democracy, because most of elections in Muslim world are rigged. And what good it will do if Egypt will change one corrupt leader on another, especially if they choose someone more radical and aggressive like Hamas for example. Hamas was elected by people in Gaza, but what good it did for them? Nothing. The same would be in Egypt just on the bigger picture. And I don't think anyone in Israel afraid of radical Islamists, but we for sure concern what all this fight for "democracy and freedom" will turn about. It could be new war on the Israel borders. If you Mr. Ploker see a fight for "democracy" I saw a bunch of thugs with weapons, who killed, loot, rob people and properties and rape women. If you think this is a part of Muslim democracy you probably need your head to be checked. To have a real democracy in Muslim countries they first of all need money, allot of them. And second they need to learn humanity and good behaviour, which they didn't have. Muslims didn't respect anyone and anything. The human life is nothing for them. How could you believe, that people who live under a Shari'a law, could be democratic? People like you live in lala land and can't see reality as it is. It's not a surprise that you belong to the small group of people, who live in delusion. Please stop to talk from health of people in Israel, because most of use have a different opinion on this subject. You don't represent most of people in Israel and what you wrote in this article is your own opinion and nothing else. And maybe it's you, who afraid of democracy in Arabs world. If everything would be okay in Muslim world you would have nothing to write about. And nobody would see how "smart" you are.
8. Sharia is not democracy
Joe Frazier   (01.31.11)
9. Do you like being wrong author of this article?
jake ,   notnieveville   (01.31.11)
like the other people said, its the same as iran, they wont get democracy as it is incompatible with islam and u dilude yourself with idealistic notions about democratic eygpt with the muslim brotherhood involved, u are wrrrrooonng dawg
10. Nobody fears decomcracy in the arab world except for
ahmed ,   london   (01.31.11)
all the countries who keep calling for democracy in the arab world. US, Israel etc etc... what a shock it must be for you all when all your fake calls for democracy and end of dictatorship actually happened. it wont lead to "radical islamic dictatorship". thats just disguised (and racist) translation of "it will lead to governments who actually work for their people instead of working for israel".
11. to #4 wrong there was the 2005 saudi king
ghostq   (01.31.11)
initiative but the king also told abu mazen to back down when Ulmert negotiated with abu mazen(the king was actually the one who gave the red light), so you see the lack of will by the king created the situation, and that was the only arab initive from not even the pali side but other entity that got interest to keep the fued going. go check it, in that initive ulmert even offered swamp of lands for peace. sadly palis missed yet another opertunity.
12. Democracy? You've got two major unsurmountable obstacles
Marcella   (01.31.11)
#1 - True Islam and democracy don't mix. And the percentage of the very observant and conservative population is much greater than that of the secular and democratic one. #2 - ME corruption at all levels is endemic and it infects politics most of all. It could make even a secular democracy unworkable. Add the following to the mixture: - The expanding influence of Iran. - Muslim Brotherhood's determination to take power. - The West's financial meltdown sending ripples to every corner of the world. - The food crisis. You can't have a real democracy when people are starving. The price of food in that part of the world has climbed dramatically. January news report: "Global wheat and maize prices recently jumped nearly 30% in a few weeks while meat prices are at 20-year highs." It's a perfect storm, and the most inauspicious time for creating democracy from scratch in an area that has never experienced it. ~~~~~~~~~~ A little anecdotal evidence: a Canadian talk radio show today had several Arab and Iranian participants calling in to warn Egyptians not to repeat the Iranian revolution experience. With the looting, rapes, killings and general chaos resulting from this uprising, even the secular middle class are having second thoughts about regime change. The big loser in all of this: Israel. Say good bye to your "peace treaty" and hello to a rising number of infiltrators walking across your border. This is what should be of concern to us right now.
13. Israel Does Fear Arab Democracy...
Orly ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (01.31.11)
...After the realization that the democratic elections in the Palestinian Authority led to the legitimate election of Hamas, which would not agree to the "peace process" - the US and Israel (together with the progressive, liberal international community) pushed Mahmoud Abbas to illegaly oust the democratic results and appoint his own Prime Minister from the Fatah, which led to a bloody and failed attempt to take away control from the democratic rulers of the PA in Gaza (the bloody coup worked however in the West Bank). Hamas did not understand democracy and was against the elections, but once they understood how it worked they were thrilled, and were they still in power the PA would be holding regular elections (rather than turning Abbas's presidency into a lifelong position of dictatorship), while the Fatah also did not understand democracy but under promisses from the West went along with the elections, but they were so inept to the concept that, to the dismay of the West, they did not know how to rig them. Israel and the US "learned their lesson" and have decided to support "reform" within dictatorial regimes as a replacement for their initial support of speading democracy in the Middle-East. Don't be naiive Mr. Plocker. Democracy in the region "tried and failed" - by actually being too legitimate. Israel, the US and the rest of the countries trying to forward the path to peace by way of the Oslo Accords fear democracy in the region as the greatest threat to this peace process. This is not ancient history, this is the past few years. Your memory is short and your analysis delusional.
14. Israel is not there to support democracy in the arab world
zionist forever   (01.31.11)
Israel has nothing against democracy in the arab world thats their business. Its not up to Israel to champion democracy in the arab world or fight for the freedoms of the Egyptian people. The job of the Israeli government is to look after number 1 .. ISRAEL. Mubarak might be a dictator and he might be oppressive to Egyptians but for Israel he was good. He tried to stop the flow of weapons to Gaza & had attempted to intervene with the Gilad Shalit negotiations. He was not our friend but he provided stability and all that matters to Israel is stability. After Desert Storm in 1991 the western allies didn't overthrow Saddam and try push for democracy in Iraq. They intentionally left Saddam in power because he was the strong man who could bring stability and ensure the oil continued to flow. HIs army was smashed so he was no threat to anybody but Iraqis and western interests were cheap oil not Iraqis. After the second Iraq war the US tried to bring democracy to Iraq ( a country which was not ready for it ) and we didn't get a liberal western democracy we got chaos and instability. There is also no evidence the Egyptians are ready for democracy just that they want Mubarak out. Only time will tell if they will be satisfied with anything less than democracy or if they will be happy under another dictator if he can keep them content. In this world every single country puts their own interests first and Israel is no different. All Israel wants for Egypt is the leader who will be best for israel.
15. The train of democracy is not a disaster, on condition ...
Dan the Jafa ,   Auckland,Aotearoa   (01.31.11)
Tell that to Gazans. I am sure they will appreciate the message. They only voted in Hamas to punish Fatah, naively thinking that they will be able to vote them out eventually.
16. They never learn.
Alex ,   Toronto, Canada   (01.31.11)
One very distinct characteristic of ideologically driven people is: they never learn from their mistakes. Lefties run with the idea of democracy like a village idiot with a box of matches. The fact that they burned many a village before doesn't seem to register in their mind. Lets recap some of the past events: - Democratic elections in Germany that brought Nazis to power - Democracy in Iran? - Democratic elections in the Territories that brought Hamas to power; - Democracy in Lebanon that led to coup d’état by Hezbollah. I think psychiatry defines this type of behavior as delusional and self-destructive. What was Einstein's definition of insanity again? Doing the same thing hoping for a different result?
17. historic comparisons
Gaby ,   Boston, MA   (01.31.11)
Unfortunately in the times on instability it is the most brutal and aggressive parties that come to power even if they do not represent the majority. It happened in France (Jacobins), it happened in Russia (Communists), it happened in Iran (Islamists). In Egypt the situation is even worse, because Islamists do represent the majority. It is almost certain that they will come to power if Mubarak folds.
18. There is a saying -
Orao. ,   Srbia.   (01.31.11)
Who’s afraid of democracy? Op-ed: Israelis fear that Arab world democracy is step towards radical Islamic dictatorship Comment - - If You take the Devil in the Boat, You have to Row Him Ashore -!. Nr 6 has the Point Here - Secular liberal democrats also helped bring down the Shah, no doubt a repressive dictator, and linked arms with the Islamists in 1979. Then the Islamists slaughtered them, or drove them into exile or underground. Mikey , SomeWhere OverHere (01.31.11). Comment - You can not get rid of the Devil by taking help from his People. That is the Falacy of the Usefull Idiots. Orao.Srbia.
19. Let me give you another reason to worry about ,
Salma ,   Palestine   (01.31.11)
As you know, "Israel" sees all Arabs and Muslims with the exception of the traitors are the enemies of her, so I can assure you that the enemies of" Israel" in the Arab world are not just Islamists, on the contrary maybe those in power, they will be the best ally of "Israel" and America "Experience in Gaza and the Sudan, etc. is the biggest proof"...... the real enemies of "Israel" are the class educated and liberal groups who are loyal to their home countries, if the uprising in Egypt led to a real democracy, Yes, you should worry in "Israel".
20. The Start of your End
Abu Yemen ,   Yemen   (01.31.11)
Don't worry you stupids, you did very well and much enough to make us (All Arabs and Muslims) that you are a Cancer and we must work hard and come back to the old books and manuals to see and think and choose the way how we are going to PLUCK you from this life and world. America is far a way to help you this time and very poor to we will sell our clothes to support Hamas and Gaza until we arrive to destroy you.
21. Bad example
Asia ,   Wroclaw PL   (01.31.11)
Poland..Not sure about this comparison - essentially the Slavic nations differ from Arabs, we never went to the extreme with our religious views, yes, we had a "revolution"in 1989 but no criminals went out in the street stealing and raping. We wanted democracy but we also had clear picture of what we wanted. Plus, remember, communism was dying slowly and during the last years it was more of a theatre show than a real regime. Hence, practically, it wasn't a radical change..That''s why I see the last paragraph a bit out of the context.
22. Good article.
noa ,   israel   (01.31.11)
What's amazing here is that we all think so negatively. If there can be a revolution in Tunisia and Egypt, maybe there can be another one in Iran, one that this time will succeed to be a more normal government, at least one whose sole purpose is not the destruction of Israel.
23. Settlment Day
Sarjoun ,   The New World Order   (01.31.11)
For few years I have been reading Ynet and talk backs to learn more about Israel from inside. it might not be the perfect representation but it is enough to see the extreme views that have been becoming more main stream rather than the minority. look at all the bashing of 'Muslim" & "Arab" world reflecting a lot of ignorance to the pluralism and diversity of these societies. I often commented that Israel is always betting on winning over corrupt governments and regimes, which is fair thought. but totally ignoring the slimmest possibility of change. I mean real change like what is happening in Egypt. it did happen but quicker than what I thought. Nobody saw it coming (at least that quick) not the Americans, the Israelis nor the regimes. now you can bash how you like but only time will show. I often commented that Israel will regret every chance they kicked out of the window to sign a peice deal including lots of 'give aways" not to mention a collective deal. I don't think the new Egypt will look to start a war with Israel but it will definitely not show the ultimate support and blind backing for Israeli aggressions. I believe if Israel fails to broker a deal and keep maneuvering for few more years (5-10 years) people will not recognise the Middle East then. Israel will be begging to keep 10% of the current final settlement privileges they already have (not what they are requesting) and most probably we will see them as the weak party asking the world to save them from growing "Arab" & "Muslim" domination. It is not wishful thinking it is more reading the strategic changes taking places: i.e. retreating Israeli society with growing Heradim and ultra extreme ideologist, falling American global domination (already half way through) and increasingly opening and evolving nations around Israel, while you can still criticize them for many shortfalls in democracy and human & civil rights issues, lots of critics forgo the fact that they are progressing day after day while Israel is retrieving or at least losing the pace
24. to#4 Sami, Israel
Marcelo ,   Berlin   (01.31.11)
you got it wrong, but that is a typical though of muslims. The saudi proposal was involving all others muslims/arabs countries. If egypt is a country with values, the agreements have to be respected. Thus, peace or no-war between Isarel and Egypt has to be respected. Problem: no muslim respect any agreement whether it is written or not. You are explosive, and nobody can make any single peace agreement with you, because the next day you start wars and killing, as arafat did, and any "muslim leader" will do.
25. to# 20 Yemen
Marcelo ,   Berlin   (01.31.11)
it does not surprise me your post, ynet surprises me posting it, actually. BTW, why you folks always think that Isarel will not defend herself. Do you really think jews will let you come and kill as many as you wish? when you started thinking about killing, Israel has already "pluck" you down and down...you are the stupids, the misserable slaves and will remain so for ever. Go, and support hamas, hizbullahand death. We, the civilization, support life. BTW, nice wall has saudi on your lands hahahahaha
26. to# 10 ahmet
Marcelo ,   Berlin   (01.31.11)
You have to change the channel and stop watching AlJazeera. Israel has never looked for democracy in muslim countries. She wants only to be in peace. Problem: your race does not want any single jew in any corner of the earth. Neither in Israel, nor in Argentina, nor in USA nor in any muslim country (UK, Gaza, Iran). Period. With or without democracy, peace agreements, etc. You migh have the whole islamist you would like to have, as long as you do not go and kill people for not being muslims, neither in your countries nor in others, as Israel.
27. Whatever the case….
dudu ,   Johannesburg   (01.31.11)
If they are rioting today so that they could have a better future, then voting for the Islamists will only decrease employment and worsen the future outlook. The tourism industry will collapse, armaments factories will close, western investment will evaporate. I hope the Egyptians are educated enough to realise the future will only be bright, if they continue on a path of democracy and western ideals… let see if they any different then the rest of the Arab world. Interesting times ahead… Good Luck Egypt… God bless
28. Sever Plocke is a RADICAL ATHEIST LEFTIST like obama hussein
Jason   (01.31.11)
29. Extreme Islamists will not take over Egypt because the
Palestinian ,   West Bank   (01.31.11)
Muslim public is not extreme and the majority is moderate. They want to live in peace and dignity like all other people.
30. #29: Hope you are right. (min temak)
Israeli 2   (01.31.11)
Egyptians are generally very peaceful by nature. There is nothing Israelis would like more than living in peace with everyone. But we will never be persecuted again.
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