Aren't you forgetting the part where Britain unlawfully carved out 78% of the Palestine Mandate and created an artificial country -- the "Kingdom of the Transjordan" -- to soothe the ruffled feathers of a baby brother? Moreover, the United Nations offered partition -- a huge Arab state and a tiny Jewish state -- which the Jews accepted. The Arabs did not, and chose to go to war instead. The rest, as they say, is history. By the way, I know you THINK you are an expert on the history of the Middle East and the Arab-Israeli conflict, but those of us who are really see you as a buffoon. Thought you might want to know that.

No other country does it. We do it! We're original thinkers! No other country would have the imagination to cede territory in the hope of improving our PR standing. Patriotic Israeli on #29, you're a genius, my kind of Israeli. Indeed, since nobody recognizes our right to the West Bank, we shouldn't be there at all. Never mind what those rabbis say about history. History is history! Gone. Who cares about history. We're the new Patriotic Israelis who are ready and willing to renounce to that land as a loving gesture of peace for our neighbors. Just wait and see. Sign that agreement with the Palestinians, and you'll have thousands of years of peace ahead. Our children will visit each other, play together. I can already hear the music in the air, the doves flying overhead. Oh, man. This is great.

which is the entire world to become one Islamic Caliphate with sharia law and all the other goodies Muslims offer such as corruption, incompetence, extreme poverty, discriminating against women and other religions. I know this because I am the Best Ever World Affairs Expert in Training. My Tex-Mex Burrito Crystal Ball still informs me Obama reelected and it is always right even if Obama will not be reelected. It is all true, I only report the way I see it with 100/100 vision through Al Jazeera colored glasses 8000 miles away from Middle East and 11000 miles away from Korean Peninsula. Viva Mejico y Tejas Unidos! BLOODYTHIRSTY SCOT GREATEST EXPERT OF TEX-MEX BURRITOS, ENCHILADAS, FAJITAS, MIDDLE EAST, FAR EAST AND NOW HUMAN RIGHTS IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES!!!!!! DALLAS, TEXAS

Dann has it right and bibi should swich positions with leiberman as he is too fearful and hasn't got leadership in his bones. He zigzags to obama,t hen to barak and then to christians united for israel. Lieberman scares the arabs, has some sense of himself and that israel should fight if it has to and has tougher skin for the PM position.Livni leans to the US too much. Judea and samaria is th ebibilical heartland of israel, yet the arabs have turned the narrative to say that it is their heartland. In fact, they have little claim to the land at all.

the world is slowly understanding your lies and propaganda .

...would be to declare 'war' on it. is 'war' the only verb of political action left in the 21st century? we use it for everything: war on terror, war on drugs. and now Israel wants to declare war on the impression that Israel is a war-mongering people-dispossessing state? great idea, Israel! really, a brilliant idea, worthy even of neoconservative USA!

It did not and does not include Judea Samaria, Gaza, or the Golan

Why is Moshe Dann able to see reality so clearly and our own government does not deal with the serious situation ,and just reacts defensively?

Not that I support the continuation of the settlements (actually I'm an avid supporter of the 2-state-solution), but your comment is too extreme to the other side. Most of the West Bank does not "legally belong to Arab private owners" (except for the towns and villages there). This territory used to be Jordanian. Since Jordan started a war with us and lost, we gained control over this territory, just as happened in every war throughout history - the winner gets the spoils, the loser gets nothing and deserves nothing. Especially if the loser iniatiated the war. By the same token, why don't you urge the USA to return Texas and California to Mexico? Furthermore, there is absolutely no relation between the 1967 armitice line with Jordan ("the green line"), to the present-day Palestinians, absolutely nothing. There are Jewish towns beyond the "green line", and there are Palestinian towns outside it (within Israel-proper). And most of Judea, especially the north part of the Dead Sea, is not populated by Palestinians. Hence, the division between Israel and the future Palestine should not be based on this line. And can you show me exactly under which "international law" the Israeli settlement is illegal? I doubt you'd find anything tangible, save all those ludicrous one-sided UN resolutions initiated by the overwhelming number of Muslim states there. You must realize that "International law" is nothing sacred. It was written by people with agendas, and approved people who were lobbied hard enough. The reason why we should move out of most of the West Bank is that we don't want the trouble, hassle and mess of ruling over 4 million Palestinians - we want them as far and separate as possible from us. But this is US doing THEM a favor by giving them a state, since we really owe them nothing. They were the ones who vowed to drive us into the sea. They lost, and have been crying ever since.

according to the leaked "Palestine Papers" it is Israel that kept saying NO to the Pals negotiating positions. No Israel gov't figure has disputed that position. So just perhaps there are partners for negotiations but this Israeli gov't is not acting like a partner for negotiations...... hmmm perhaps time to change our self indulgent whiny paradigm before it is too late

as opposed to how the Guardian spun it....

There is no brilliant solution, Salma. There are lots of painful decisions that have to be made. Are you ready to write up a treaty that declares finally that millions of "refugees" are not going to go back to where their grandparents or great-grandparents came from? But at the same time the Americans and EU and Russia will cough up the money to turn the camps into proper cities and integrate the "Palestinians" into Lebanon, Syria an Jordan and other Arab countries that will have to give them full citizenship. Will you do that? Heck, maybe if you are the president of the PA and I'm the PM of Israel then I'll sign that Israel will evacuate and hand over the Har Homa, Gilo and Neve Yaakov neighborhoods of Jerusalem, but that Russian and the EU have to foot the bill for relocating and housing the 80,000 Israelis who will be displaced. I'm not going to solve it on my own. I can't. You can't either. However, we have to push our leaders to hammer out a very complex deal that would hurt both of us, but leave us both in a position to move forward under a treaty of peace and cooperation. Are you ready for the pain of a peace treaty, Salma? If Arab refugees will stay in Lebanon and get Lebanese citizenship, if you're willing to have a demilitarized state, if 1001 other things will be agreed upon too, then I might also be willing to become a citizen of your country and stay in my homeland here in the high hills of Judea. Then we can start our own political party - the first Arab-Jewish political party in the PA! Let me know where we fill out the paperwork - the interior ministry in Ramallah? After we file should we go for some kanaffe in El Bireh?

the man's last point was ambiguity shows weakness - not true! best military, political strategist minds always say be ambiguous. the most religiously observant and secure-in-their-belief rabbis invite dispute. you can say this government is good/bad till kingdom come. it's a matter of opnion - yours can sometimes be right/wrong... nobody's always perfect, not even bibi & lieberman. but the moment you FORCE me to think like you, you are a khumeinist. judaism NEVER demanded unity in tyhought. it developed and prided itself in debate. the catholic church, on the other hand.... so decide who you're with before you dictate to me who should define the jewish state: judaism, catholicism or islam.

Brian Cohen, you want to become a citizen of Palestine ( this is a brilliant proposal ) but at the same time do not accept the Palestinians return to "Israel", to be "Israeli" citizens. Let's agree on one thing, the solution is easy, but the problem is that the two sides, especially "Israel" can not kick religion out of politics. I and a large segment of the Palestinian public opinion are willing to accept Mr. Cohen as a Palestinian citizen, regardless of your religion, you are living among us, Do you deny that the Palestinians do not have any problem with the Jews as Jews, Can't you notice that , Brian ? sure you can. As for the vast majority of "Israelis" their problem with us is that we are not Jews!! I'm ready to give you my house in Ramallah as gift of a memory, when I go back to Akka : )

Is Netanyahu an anti-Zionist? Is much of Likud anti-Zionist? You've devoted much space to describing Israel's anti-Zionist far left. These are not the people I worry about. Same thing holds true in the US. We have the loony left that is destroying the institutions that made America great. It's not the left I worry about, but the pseudo-right; much of the Republican party. Same holds true in Israel. It is the right in Israel that (Dann properly calls) Schizophrenic - the anti-Zionist left has no misgivings - it is the pseudo-Zionist right that worries me.

Arabs who live in Israel now have full Israeli citizenship. Jews who live in what may be Palestine should get full Palestinian citizenship. Or maybe one part of the solution will be dual-citizenship. Why not? I do not agree with you at all that the solution is easy. There is no easy solution. There are many problems. One of which is that what we see in the news is that many Palestinians do indeed have problems with the Jews - but then again, I admit that many Jews have problems with Arabs. Do you want 400,000 Jews moving to Hebron? Remember - all the Jews in the world are descendents of those who were living in Israel and were turned into refugees. There are going to have to be painful decisions on both sides. The solution is going to be very, very complex. The solution is not going to be fair, but it's going to have to be the fairest working solution possible. Again - there will be no solution without our leaders working it out, so please tell the PA to return to the talks (and tell Hamas that they should discuss peace with Fatah and with Israel, not war to get rid of Fatah and then to get rid of Israel).

You wrote: "...many Palestinians do indeed have problems with the Jews - but then again, I admit that many Jews have problems with Arabs."

You will go back to Akko about the same time as my parents get their hoise back in Aden and my wife's family get their house in Tripoli, that will be never!!! BTW the Arabs that didn't run in 48 believing nonsense propoganda are still in their houses in Akko, nothing happened to them. How many Jews are still in Aden or Tripoli? the answer is none! If you want a Palestinian state please go back to Jordan, the country of which your parents were citizens of.

The rest of the world does not recognise Israel's presence in the WB precisely because we shouldnt be there! Patriotism means loving Israel, and anyone who can think longer term than the next election can see that settling and annexing the WB will only lead to one conclusion- a one state solution. Israeli Jews and millions of Arabs- how long do you think we would remain a Jewish state after that? What would our history loving Rabbis say? If Israel annexes the WB proper, if it becomes impossible to extract the settlers (it is already increasingly so) how long do you think Israel, a democratic and freedom-loving country supposedly, can hold out on not giving the WB Arabs voting rights and citizenship? The only solution is to give them their own state, their own citizenship, their own parliament. If we continue expanding into the WB in the end we will find ourselves ruling over the whole thing, and if we dont give them equal rights this ridiculous charge anti-israelis keep making against us of Apartheid would actually become correct. Noone said we have to get on with our neighbours, have peace and doves etc etc. But give them a state and leave them alone, they can leave us alone and we can continue as a democratic and Jewish state, the original vision for Israel.

Hi Tahl, You sound like a sensible and moderate person and make some good points. However I think youre a little confused about history. The West Bank never 'belonged' to Jordan, not in the sense that it was ever soverign Jordanian territory. If you are referring to the British Mandate over TRANS Jordan then it included Palestine/Israel too- no such a country existed beforehand. The Jordanians used to exert control over the WB before the 1967 war but it was never a sovereign part of its territory, it was always earmarked as part of a future palestinan state, even going back to the UN partition plan of 1947 which divided the Palestinan mandate into roughly 60% for Jews 40% for Arabs, and created a separate state for Jordan. The WB was never included in this plan as part of the Jordanian state. I agree with you about the green line being an arbitrary and not necessarily logical construct, but the facts on the ground are that both sides basicaly accept it as a starting point for negotiations, its expected that the eventual border would of course be redrawn to correspond better with the demography on each side of the line. International law is based on established precedents and not on UN resolutions, which i agree are ridiculously one sided and biased. However it is farely clear when you examine international law that the settlements in the WB are defined as an occupation of anothers land, this land is not 'ownerless' and indeed most of the settlements in particular the ones further into the WB proper have been built on farmland owned by palestinians. I dont even want to get into what is going on in Hebron! I agree about the hassle and trouble of ruling over 4 million Palestinians, but also its just plain not right, not just under Judaism or under our western democratic principles. If we are ruling over them then we DO owe them something. If the US were to deny the civil and democratic rights of the latino citizens of Texas then yes im sure you would see a movement emerge which calls for the US to give Texas back to Mexico. Such a movement doesnt exist because the latinos have been naturalised as Americans and enjoy the same status as everyone else. This obviously is not the case in the WB. A better comparison would be Tibet, which was actually a sovereign country prior to the Chinese invasion. Neither the Chinese occupation of Tibet nor the settlement of the West Bank have a place in our C21st world as the idea of winning territory in a war and taking the land of another people as some sort of spoil belongs to the colonial era and before, and is largely recognised as being amoral and belonging to a different era, especially in the West. This is why we have objection to Tibet and the settlers of the WB today through out the world and yet nobody is objecting to the US owning Texas- settlement and occupation belongs to a different time and a different ideology, it has no place in western values (nor Judaism for that matter)

There are some seriously delusional comments on this board--except for those who point out, correctly, it's not the PR battle that Israel is losing but instead the reality battle. It's Israeli actions that have caused so much bitterness amongst many in the world. You can't spin crap and expect it to be believed for long. There comes a time when a people need to ask why, exactly, so many--including friends in the US--have become so critical of Israel. Without falling into the all-too-easy trap of victimization. What Israel needs to do is simple: make peace with the Palestinians. Do what needs to be done without all the bogus rationalizations. If not there will come a time when even the US will FULLY turn its back on Israel. It also wouldn't hurt if the posters on this board showed a little more appreciation for what the US has done for Israel over the years instead of incessantly whining about Obama. It makes you look petty beyond belief and is liable to accelerate the thinking of many Americans that US support for Israel is not in the US's best interests.

Don't complicate It, It's easy to solve. You just need to decide, do you want peace or war? Without the Palestinians' right to return, there would be NO Palestinian cause . I agree with you, the Palestinians are divided but don't forget you have the most right wing, most pro-settlement, most uncompromising "Israeli" government in power in modern history. "Israel" today is the only sovereign authority, it’s the only power between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River. But remember, in the same place there are TWO people, what doeas that mean? if a two-state solution is impossible, the only alternative is a one-state solution. I only want peace here and hope you all will come with me, Although there is no doubt in my mind that you prefer war to peace........unfortunately "Israel" practices prove Inability to meet Peace requirements.

robbery?

I wasn't aiming at any moral equivalence. In fact, I didn't bother mentioning the fact that Arabs can wander around Jewish towns, but in some Arab towns a Jew would be lynched if he entered alone...especially in uniform. However, that's not the issue here. The issue is that the Palestinians are refusing to negotiate, and fairness is not an issue. Neither is construction, which is being used as an excuse, not a reason. Salma likes to make simplistic statements, but we all know that this is a very very complex and complicated conflict with no easy solutions. The conflict will not be solved if the Palestinians refuse to negotiate. Instead, it appears that they're actually working on ways to make their situation worse than it is. Either that, or they're are cleverly working out a solution that avoids them having to make a decision on the refugees. If they declare a state and everybody in the world recognizes it, then the refugees remain in limbo and Fatah again simply shrugs their shoulders and blames "the zionists".

How can you have "peace" when you say the only reason for the creation of a "Palestine" is the refugees? Why are you putting words in my mouth saying that I prefer war? I certainly do not. I'm not going to put words in your mouth either. You're telling us that millions of Palestinians will suddenly decide that it's time to come "home" to Tiberias and Safed and Lod and other places, and that they'll peacefully and happily come and integrate themselves into Israel? Or you're telling us that they'll all move to Ramallah and Jenin and Gaza? The one-state solution means that we'll all live together in a secular state and everybody will obey the law, including the millions of refugees who will flood both Israel and the West Bank/Gaza? The PA is totally incapable of absorbing two million people, let alone 200,000. Be realistic - what is going to happen to the Arab refugees? And don't dig yourself a hole by saying that the only claim you have to statehood is the refugees. That does not a cause for statehood make. I want peace. I do not want war (and I really don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth). What we Israelis see is the Palestinians continuing the conflict: rockets and mortars from Gaza, bullets, rocks and molotov cocktails in the west bank. And, of course, you say you want peace but you refuse to negotiate. Me? I'm always an optimist. I was just shopping at Rami Levi where Arabs and Jews work and shop side-by-side peacefully. I don't think a one-state solution is possible - both sides are too immature and have no extended culture of living under a democratic secular rule. Come on, even in America they only started getting it right barely 40 years ago. Ditto for Europe.

I couldnt agree more. Well done

I don't think white Europeans did the natives right when they illegally expropriated and occupied native American and Mexican lands. Terrible wrongs were done in North America to its natives by you and your forebears. Why don't you give the land back to her rightful owners esnufnstl? Why don't you give your own property (if you are a land-owner) in the US back to its "rightful" owners?

Palestinians are clear and consistant about what they want; Israelis are not. Pals want it all, and some Israeli politicians think they can make a quickie deal and hang on as long as possible. And now, with Egypt threatened with revolution, the region could rock.

My comments to some of your remarks. "it was always earmarked as part of a future palestinan state" - Until 1967, the WB was Jordanian territory for all practical purposes. There was no such thing as "Palestinian" people until this name was coined in the Arab League summit in 1964 I think, and was used to refer to all the peasants who came to the area in the recent centuries, clearly not the original inhabitants. So this territory was historically never designated as "Palestinian". It was always Jordanian. The ersatz "Palestinians" who lived inside the WB had a Jordanian citizenship, while those living outside (aka "Arab-Israelis") had an Israeli citizenship. "most of the settlements in particular the ones further into the WB proper have been built on farmland owned by palestinians" - Can you provide a solid proof of that? "the idea of winning territory in a war and taking the land of another people as some sort of spoil belongs to the colonial era and before, and is largely recognised as being amoral..." - Leftist claptrap. The amoral side is the one who STARTED the war. You start a war in order to annihilate the other side, you lose it - tough luck! You are NOT entitled to what you lost. Winner - keeper, loser weeper. The only time I would be ok with people pointing fingers and pontificating at Israel's occupation of the WB, is after they are through pointing fingers at such countries as America (for stealing land from the Indians), Australia (Aboriginals), New Zealand (Maoris), Britain (Falklands) Turkey (Kurds), Syria (Lebanon), Morocco, Sudan, Iran, Russia, China, and so many more. Before that happens, I allow myself to shut off my ears to those hypocrites who criticise us. "Neither the Chinese occupation of Tibet nor the settlement of the West Bank have a place in our C21st world" - China already has about 1 billion square kilometers, so it does not need Tibet. And the Tibetans never waged a war to kill or drive out all the Chinese people. Totally erroneous comparison. Israel's occupation of the WB started in the mid 20th century, who saw a plethora other occupations still going on today. "the green line being an arbitrary and not necessarily logical construct, but the facts on the ground are that both sides basicaly accept it as a starting point for negotiations" - Which is a big mistake on our part! Using the green line as a basis, the Palestinians are guaranteed a certain amount of area for their state, which too big for us to give up. If we "shave" some of the WB according to our needs, we are required to give parts of Israel-proper, and this is unacceptable (unless we're talking about Arab towns like Um El Fahm or Baka). The green line must be erased and forgotten. "its just plain not right, not just under Judaism or under our western democratic principles" - I refuse to partake in this unnecessary guilt-trip. The reason we should agree to a Palestinian state is solely for our own interest, and not because we are supposedly morally wrong in any way.

Hi Tahl, As someone who professes to object to the settlement movement you seem to have absorbed a hell of a lot of historical misinformation which spreads from that very ideology. To claim that there was no such thing as Palestinians until 1964 is ridiculous, next youll be telling me that the land was empty and the Jews just arrived to claim it, as I have heard other delusioned folk claim from time to time. If you need proof of this just check the 1947 UN Partition Plan which pointedly refers to a Palestinian state and a Palestinan people who would live in that state. RE Jordanian citizenship- if Jordan gave citizenship to the citizens of the WB following the 1948 war, then why are there approx. 4 million Palestinians living in the WB today who do not have Jordanian citizenship? Palestinans who even live in Jordan proper are denied Jordanian citizenship, as are those living in Lebanon etc. No "peasants came to the area in recent centuries" go to an objective Western library and take out a history book- the Arab conquests occurred in the 7th and 8th Centuries and they have been here ever since. There is plenty of solid proof that the land many of the settlements are based on belongs to palestinians, obviously i cannot attach documentary evidence to this talkback but if you are open minded enough check it out yourself. All this mumbo jumbo about other countries occupying other peoples is nonsensical if you actually listen to my arguement. These things happened in history and there were many autrocities and genocides, such as with the American Indians. The point is most of these occupations too place CENTURIES AGO and people have since recognised that they were wrong, and that occupying another people is wrong. I used Tibet as an example because it happened in virtually the same era as the 1967 war (a little before) and is one of the only examples of a one country occupying another permanently following a war in the second half of the C20th. Did you see America moving in and permanently occupying Japan after WW2? What is your opinon about the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe? Everybody cheered when the iron curtain came down because our modern society recognises that occupation, even if youve won the war, is plain wrong. Yes the Arabs shouldnt have started the war, but that doesnt mean we have the right to settle their land for all eternity afterwards. If you negotiate with another party over land you obviously need a starting point. If you dont have boundaries and parameters then you cannot meaningfully negotiate anything. Thats why the green line is being used, not because it will necessarily form the border, but as a starting point. obviously there will be trade offs on each side, and land will be exchanged- Um El Fahm etc for the larger settlement blocs near Jerusalem or whatever. That both sides basically accept the green line as a starting point is evident- just look at the wikileaks docs. To remove any sense of morality from Israel's decision making would make us no better than animals. Judaism is not about acting only selfishly and for our own interests, and we are a Jewish state who is meant to possess Jewish values. You cannot divorce our values as Jews and human beings from our policies! A government which acts without a moral compass quickly turns on its own people as well. It is morally wrong to occupy another people and deny them equal rights, and it belongs to the C19th and not to today. This is not a guilt trip- it is a widely held and accepted 'fact' among most peoples of the West, and a great number of Israelis also.