Opinion
Israel's hospital tragedy
Polina Perlman
Published: 07.04.11, 11:15
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30 Talkbacks for this article
1. This All Because of Socialized Medicine
Reuven Brauner ,   Raanana, Israel   (04.07.11)
For all the good socialized medicine provides society, it has major drawbacks as described here. Undoubtedly, though, everyone in the health care professions deserve significant raises in salaries and benefits. They save lives afterall! Regarding beligerent vistors - hospitals have to beef-up their security staffs so that the minute a relative gets pushy or out of line he is thrown out of the hospital immediately and/or arrested. What to do? We live in a country filled with a lot of hot-headed, sub-cultured wiseguys who need to be (sometimes forceably) defused.
2. Conditions do not sound any different from
reizel ,   usa   (04.07.11)
those here in the states when I was a student/intern/resident back in the 80's.
3. You get what youpay for
Shalom ,   Ashdod, Israel   (04.07.11)
The answer is to convert the whole system into a form of private practice where doctors get paid "by the piece" and not by "the month". In the latter approach there is no incentive to produce since the doctor gets the same salary at the end of the month anyway. In addition, we need to abolish the concept of the "department" since all it does is to protect incompetent doctors. Departments do not provide medical care nor do they operate on patients; it is the doctors in those departments who do and we should let each one stand on his own. By using the cover of department, these doctors avoid direct responsibility. This is a symptom of Israeli society in general. When was the last time that a minister resigned because he disagrees with the PM!! (gasp!!!) Also the patient can get to choose the doctor of his choice whereas now all the patient can do is to choose a "department" and "hope" he falls on reliable hands. Regrading the behavior of patients and their relatives, again it is also a manifestation of society. Somehow in Israel people feel that if you scream then others can hear you. Enough said.
4. Is it complaining or what?
Mark ,   J-lem   (04.07.11)
I don't really understand what this article is about? Did they just SUDDENLY found out that doctors work is as hard (and sometimes even more) as a constructing worker's one? What it is news to you? Would the author wrote the article with a better payment? Yes it is hard. Yes you will work till exhaustion and then some more. And after that a little more. And after that... That's your job you choose it. Do you think in other countries things go differently? Nope, everywhere it's the same. Just keep up, like the others mentioned in the article. After several years it won't be easier but you will learn how to deal with it.
5. Yet despite all this they do a wonderful job
Avi ,   Israel   (04.07.11)
I think its amazing how are doctors and nurses work so hard and provide the best care in the circumstances. Hope they get a pay rise and better conditions as they deserve it.
6. try reading the article
sensible guy   (04.07.11)
Because it talks about how young and in experienced residents are put in charge of 40 + people and have to make life threatening decisions with no safety net, to compare it to a consrtuction worker who works physical labour just doesn't work. not to mention over 2 month waiting lists... And what are they doing to attract the best people for the job? Nothing.
7. Doctors conditions
Jacob ,   Jerusalem   (04.07.11)
I dont believe you know what you're talking about. Doctors conditions in Europe is great, less hours and more pay. If Israel doesnt improve doctors conditions they will simply run away.
8. to #6 and #7
Mark ,   J-lem   (04.07.11)
#6 as far as I know when you are becoming resident there is now such thing as inexperienced residents. It takes 6 years of studies and several years of internship. During their education they had plenty of practice and had good impression of their future profession. They should know almost everything. Did you noticed in the article that everyone else was doing they same job? Why they could manage it? Besides, you can't do anything with it, the system built the way it is. And they don't need to attract, because majority of the doctors already left (do you have any idea how much Israel need medical employees? Not just doctors, nurses, laboratory workers and so on) #7 I have to disagree, you are talking about doctors who have private practice. Indeed they have all those great conditions you mentioned. Doctors who work in hospitals and clinics usually don't have it. (for example - check the amount of payment for doctors who work in hospitals in US - you will be surprised).
9. #4
Steve ,   Physician Israel   (04.07.11)
obviously you are a construction worker Lets change jobs for a day see how you do. remember you get what you pay for , Who believes the "connected " have to wait in line even the driver of some second rate beurocrat gets preferential treatment- so much for social medicine
10. improving the situation costs money & people can't pay more
chava ,   yerushalayim   (04.07.11)
Being a resident is more than hard. She or he deserves more pay and needs more help. But that costs money, and people don't want to and really are unable to pay higher taxes. A resident has worked under others for a number of years, and has studied for even more years before becoming a resident. Making decisions which could mean life or death for someone is one of the hardest things a person can do. Doing it hour after hour with not nearly enough sleep is even harder. Kol hakavod to those who choose it and succeed at it. Let's hope things improve, but if not, let's hope the residents can continue (be"H) doing what's necessary to save lives and care for people.
11. Won't pay them more, but benefits should be no different
Sharon ,   Israel   (04.07.11)
than those of other service providers, including government and electricity. That means they should not pay for: Electricity Water Home gas Car Train Bus Cell phone Property tax And should get discounts on everything else. The government may also consider actually collecting taxes from millionaires and billionaires, especially those who broke the law to get there (that woulld be most of them).
12. hospitals in israel
Bernard Landman   (04.07.11)
in the uk there was a similar problem with staff in hospitals (particularly in the emergency rooms) being threatened and physically abused by patients and their friends or relatives. In all of these areas there are notices warning people that the hospital authorities will ALWAYS take action against anyone abusing the staff -and they do-. Police are called and they have instructions to arrest these people-and they do-. These actions have had the effect of curtailing this problem.
13. You may want to take a look at Ontario's budget model
Ypip ,   Canada   (04.07.11)
One way they were able to slash the deficit and improve health services was by reducing the cost of widely prescribed generic drugs by half. A move that's expected to save the province about $500 million a year. This scheme somewhat rejects slash-and-burn policies of vital public services, yet rather look at ways of delivering services more efficiently on a cost effective basis. So in other words...continual enquiry and trials for an effective outcome. Where is the waste in the system occurring? Some services and programs may be axed if someone else can do it better. They're even investigating alternative methods. But the mission stresses that front-line health care and education services must be protected.
14. #12
JB ,   Rehovot Israel   (04.07.11)
Bernard, the police in Israel aren't here to protect anyone, or to enforce the law. Maybe if a cute girl has a problem, but not the rest of the population. I wouldn't call the police if I was dying, and I have been...
15. respect
Dr's wife ,   Israel   (04.07.11)
Not only are the doctor's paid terribly, but they are treated horribly by the rest of the staff.
16. The basic flaws in modern health care thinking
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (04.07.11)
Health care doesn't conform to general market economics. There's an underlying inelasticity to demand - when someone you care about is sick, you don't care how much it costs - as long as someone else is paying for it. Thinking about this problem, I distinguish between private vs. public health, with the latter dealing with matters that affect the general public, rather than individuals. That means focusing on basic sanitation, immunization, preventing the spread of communicable disease, etc. But what every modern society seems to have done is investing *public* resources in private health care. And that's where things fall apart. Because resources are ultimately finite, but potential demand is unlimited. That's part of the dilemma.
17. Lack of money or resources?
Ameridane ,   Aarhus, Denmark.   (04.07.11)
My daughter is studying medicine in Copenhagen. Here in Denmark , due to the crisis a lot of personnel was laid off in an efford to save money. But in Israel, you spend so much money on aid to Haredi people, and the settlers, so what is YOUR excuse?
18. Bluff
Ernie ,   US   (04.07.11)
I have a recent experience with Israel and US hospitals. A large Israeli hospital (such as Asaf haRofe) beat an average US hospital with hands off in all except comfort of patients and politeness of the staff.
19. There is No Easy Solution
susan ,   Raanana, Israel   (04.07.11)
This is a very complex problem. It starts with a lack of places at Israeli universities for promising students. Many gifted students are turned down and have to go abroad (sometimes staying in their host countries) so we can make room for foreign med students who are paying higher tuitions. Next is the total lack of respect shown to young doctors by the public and by their superiors. Add to that the dangerous amount of hours hospital residents spend on call. No other profession would put up with this. But has anyone put any thought into how our health system can save millions in hospitalizations if they would invest in PREVENTATIVE health care? How ironic that patients can get loads of chemical pharmaceuticals from their HMOs at low cost yet have to pay for "extras" such as relaxation/stress reduction, nutrition and stop- smoking courses. How much cancer, stroke, diabetes and heart disease could be prevented by investing in education? How many infant hospitalizations could be avoided by giving new mothers the tools to successfully breastfeed? And how many surgeries could be reduced by providing alternatives?
20. 16-Well thought out Raymond
Ypip ,   Canada   (04.07.11)
The two-tiered system can benefit each other when dedicated towards one another.
21. medicine
Oscar ,   Fort Worth TX   (04.08.11)
I am an Israeli physician. 8 year ago I took a temporary position in the US and stayed. The problem is much worse than the author recognizes. when she writes that doctors are not emigrating she is wrong. Out of my former dept of 12 doctors, 4 work abroad and never returned. I have recently visited one of the Israeli hospitals and I noticed that many residents are foreigners from poor countries brought to work without proper testing, the hospitals look and feel like the third world. The author is also wrong to complain about the position of the residents. US residents work more hours in more difficult conditions and make less than the minimum necessary to live. But this does not matter at all because being a resident is supposed to be a temporary struggle. The problem is that once you finish the residency you do not make enough money to live a decent life. Also the system is totally crooked. Once someone is elected a director of a dept this position is for life and this brings by arrogance and lack of competence. The Jewish doctors are among the best in the world but the Israeli medical system is sub par.
22. KAPLAN HOSPITAL, REHOVOT
shrinkDave ,   Miami   (04.08.11)
I was recently shocked by the lack of hygiene, and professionalism I witnessed upon admitting my nephiew to Kaplan. It was so grossly disgusting and dirty that I paid for an ambulance out of pocket to take him to Hadassah, and had the opposite experience. Once upon a time, Kaplan was a good hospital. I wouldn't take my dog there now.
23. Compensation for physicians
Jesse, Haifa, Israel   (04.08.11)
The salaries of young physicians is deplorable. Those who dedicate themselves to medicine, who are among the highest-intelligence sector of our population, give of ourselves for 3-6 years of residency, and then throughout professional careers, so as to better the health of all. At 55 years old, I and my peers continue to serve thos ein need 24hours/day. Physicians should continue to give more than we take, but within safe and context-reasonable conditions- physical and economical.
24. I left!
Erez ,   London/Tel Aviv   (04.08.11)
I got up and left and now I'm a surgeon in london. I earn more her in a day than I did in Israel in a month of Hospital work, kupat holim, Toraniot etc. 24 shekals an hour for a surgeon not good! It is sad but Israel does not need or appreciate many professionals. I still operate, lecture regularly in Israel.
25. it's the same everywhere
reb ,   indiana, usa   (04.09.11)
This article EXACTLY describes my life as a resident. Only, I attend school in the USA.
26. The situation at our hospitals
Sagi   (04.10.11)
and the general condition of our healthcare system is a direct outcome of our sick Government and even more sick electoral system. These two patients require surgery, intrusive and exact surgery. Once these two cancers have been operated on and brought to a stable and normal condition then all else will fall into place.
27. oblivion
(04.27.11)
obviously you have no idea what a department is and the function of it
28. from an ER doc in the perifery of Israel
(04.27.11)
no we chose to treat people to try to save lives, and we are put in situations that endanger lives, and we bear the brunt of all the frustrations of suffering patients and families of who don't understand the absurdity of it all,
29. hospital tragedy
mark ,   T.A. israel   (04.29.11)
Personally L noticed the high luxury in new departments that some of our rich brothers donated to. ensure their name to be publicized on the wall.I suggest to our philanthropes. to save some money asking for more modest building materials and give the remaining money. to. a fund created to be distributed for the health personal working in this department. Those luxurious shining special marble and etc.do not help us to recover from our disease whereas the well being of the Personel is important for everybody and they will be remembered every time when the Personel will receive their incremented salary each time, Respectfully yours.
30. hospital tragedy
mark ,   t.a. israel   (04.29.11)
i would like to add to my comment 29 the life story of little morris(the founder of phillip morris cigarets and american tobacco)who was cured of his serious illness at the hospiital of his native province manisa at west of turkey and who when he became a succesful businessman far from his homeland never forgot his humble origin bestowed a valuable childrens hospitalto his native province in 1930 after sending the necessary money for the construction of the hospital he also established a fund for the well functioning of the hospital.the fund has been managedby chase bank as still today the officials pay a visit to the hospital and hand over the annual income . today the morris shinasi childrens hospital serves the children of the area and is one of the seven childrens hospital of turkey may his life story inspires us all
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