Opinion
Setting the boundaries
Yoaz Hendel
Published: 19.05.11, 18:12
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1. We have a border
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (05.19.11)
It is spelled out in international laws - the Jordan River. Deport all non-citizens to their own countries, that is the only answer.
2. Risky Move
Tel Avivoid   (05.19.11)
While I agree Israel cannot ignore the looming UN vote, I don't think this particular alternative is viable. Internationally, it is doubtful the Palestinians or the world would accept Israel's annexation. Any lauds for recognizing a Palestinian state would be drowned out by criticism of the move. Domestically, those "handful of nutcases" you mention would go ballistic. ANY recognition of a Palestinian state is a red line for the far right, and recognition a permanent agreement will be unpalatable for even the center. Not that alternatives shouldn't be explored, of course. I just think this one might not be the right one.
3. this is the original vision for Sharons Kadima
zionist forever   (05.19.11)
When Sharon planned to create Kadima the idea was Israel annex what it sees as most important strategically annex it and then dump the rest and give it to the palestinians for their state. Israel should annex settlement blocks now for if the palestinians go to the UN but it should not give anything in exchange at this time. Annex the areas now we see as strategically valuable and then everything else keep as playing cards. Whilst we are still in a position of power we need to make use of what we have and not weaken our position out of goodwill the way we have done to many times. If he starts by annexing the settlement blocks it will by Bibi friends on both the right and mainstream left.
4. Mr Hendel, are you going to tell the UN to go to hell?
David ,   Karmiel, Israel   (05.19.11)
Any fool knows very well that the UN will vote for the creation of a Palestinian state in September. I don't like it either but a vast majority of countries DO like it just as the majority on UN members "liked" the idea of a State of Israel in 1947. Yes, a different time and a different UN, but the UN all the same. The view expressed by Prof. Arie Eldad on Israel Radio 2 this evening that the Palestine in September thing is nothing but Barak pushing Bibi Netanyahu into a situation that will but the Prime Minister into conflict situation with the coalition is nonsense. Anyone with a modicum of common sense this might be some "pushing" by Barak but thereat of a UN created Palestinian state in September is real and why shouldn't they create a Palestinian state? They created ours! So, a little honesty is required from our Government and our politicians. Firstly, we the people of Israel, demand to know what the Government tends to do if there is a vote in favor of the Palestinians. Is Israel going to accept it or are we going to tell the UN, the EU, Russia, China and even the USA to go to hell? Secondly, if the answer to the first point is UN go to hell, then how is the Government and its coalition member going to prepare the country to face an onslaught of sanctions and maybe even war? We want answers and the Government and its coalition members must give us the answers.
5. The only question is
Jarda ,   Czech Republic   (05.19.11)
why? Why do you think you have right to steal Arab's land?
6. No "palestinians", no recognition.What's there to talk about
tom ,   tel aviv   (05.19.11)
7. Author misses the point
Nour ,   One State   (05.19.11)
Refer to Abbas' NYT article. UN recognition of Palestine would allow it to pursue the Occupying Entity in all intentional institutions including the ICJ, Hague, ICC among numerous others paving way for full sanctions. Expect a treatment worse than RSA of apartheid era.
8. Furthermore, you will NOT get away with theft
Nour ,   Palestine   (05.19.11)
Theft of private Palestinian lands, theft of water resources, homes, hilltops, and tax money!!!
9. Annex Jewish "settlements"
Wade ,   NYC USA   (05.19.11)
So, when the UN endorses Palestine, Israel's borders will already include Ariel, the Gush, Ma'ale Adumim, etc. Otherwise, Israel immediately becomes an 'occupier' of sovereign Palestine. Better that the Palestinians challenge Israeli sovereignty of parts of Israel than have them complain about occupation of their declared state. Besides, Judean and Samarian Jews deserve to be in Israel after all these years. Israel should also shed the Arab neighborhoods near Jerusalem.
10. #5, the better question is...
Jake ,   USA   (05.19.11)
Why do you think the West Bank is Arab land?
11. The opinion assumes a priori
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.19.11)
... that the "Palestine" Authority would agree to anything but all of Judea and Samaria and evacuation of the settlements. The opinion also completely disregards the issue of Jerusalem -- East Jerusalem was annexed in 1967 in order to unify the city. I do not believe that it is the intent of any Israeli to share our capital, and I do not believe that the ersatz "Palestinians" will agree to any other capital city to their fictitious state. Which then begs the question -- since we will NOT share Jerusalem and since they do not want Jews residing in any of the territories which are nominally under their control, would that mean that Israel could enjoy a parallel right, and evict all Arabs in Jerusalem and environs? If not, why not? And what about the Arabs resident in Israel proper? Could we not then expel them, too? Here again -- if not, why not? If they insist on a "state" that is Judenrein, surely Israel enjoys an equal right to be "Arabrein." I continue to believe that annexing Judea and Samaria and repatriating its Arab residents to Jordan is the best of all possible worlds. The ersatz "Palestinians" can build their state in one where they already are a majority of the population and one which can legitimately be called "Palestine." We know that in any such ersatz "Palestinian" state, Jews would not be wanted; or even tolerated. This would doubtless be perfectly acceptable to the international community, which stood by and watched in silence as the thriving Jewish communities of Iraq, Jordan, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt and other nations throughout the Arab and Islamic worlds were persecuted, expelled and, in some cases, slaughtered, so presumably Israel is entitled to similar silence should we choose not to share our state with Arabs (at least the Moslem Arabs; we cannot throw Christians to the lions). This is all idle daydreaming, anyway. The ersatz "Palestinians" are incapable of building a viable state. Moreover, Fatah has aligned itself with the terrorist organization most virulently opposed to the very existence of the State of Israel -- Hamas. The ersatz "Palestinians" cannot keep their own house in order, and they will never give up their silly dreams of ever dislodging the Jewish state. So why is there any point to "negotiating" with an enemy that is bent on Israel's destruction?
12. What is most disturbing regarding the borders issue – Part 1
Marcella   (05.19.11)
Is how the Prime Minister seems to be making decisions all by himself without informing his MKs, much less taking input from the public. Coalition chairman Ze'ev Elkin said to the media: I'm still not sure what Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu will say in Washington. I'm not sure anyone really understood what direction he'll take. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ So the Prime Minister sits at his desk and delineates the new proposed borders for the state of Israel. Just a proposal. Depending on international pressure, he can redraw them again with further retreats. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Doesn't anyone find this a rather odd way of running a country and making vital decisions for its survival? Isn't Israel a democracy? Isn't the PM accountable to his people? Isn't Israel an independent sovereign country? Why does your PM keep going to Washington and the EU anyway? Who owns Israel? Didn't the League of Nations settle the Jewish state's borders a long time ago? If neither international law nor history matter to the Israeli government - on the basis of what do you Israelis base your sovereignty over the land? Or is Israel a TEMPORARY COUNTRY with temporary borders constantly renegotiating its lease?
13. Nour #7
Mickey ,   Sydney Australia   (05.19.11)
In order for the UN to recognize a Palestinian state, the resolution of the General assembly needs to be passed by the Security Council. this isn't going to happen as at least the USA will veto it. Keep dreaming
14. To: No. 5
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.19.11)
Because it is NOT "Arab" land. All of Mandatory Palestine was NON-SOVEREIGN land. The British lopped off the vast majority and invented a new entity called the "Kingdom of the Transjordan" (subsequently shortened to "Jordan"), and gave it to the baby brother, Abdullah, of Feisal, whom the British had just installed as "King" of "Iraq" (Abdullah wanting to be a king as well). What was left, by 1947, was to be partitioned into one tiny Jewish state and one much larger Arab state. While the Jews accepted partition, the Arabs rejected it and chose to go to war instead. They lost. Too bad. All of Judea, Samaria and Gaza remain non-sovereign territory to this day. But not for long. Israel will annex Judea and Samaria -- having won six wars, it belongs to us. If you don't like it -- well, that's just too bad. You cannot have one set of international statute and convention that applies to Israel and another set of international statute and convention that applies to everyone else.
15. @ Tel Avivoid
Jewish Warrior   (05.19.11)
There will be condemnation and non-recognition, of course, but there will be nothing done. If Israel, however, announces that in exchange for the annexations, it is recognizing a Palestinian state, it will loosen pressure. Even if it doesn't, the US will block any punitive action by the UN. The large Jewish community and pro-Israel bloc is upset enough as it is in the US, and Obama does not want to upset it more, now that the 2012 elections are coming up. Also, Congress can use the same tactics it did to force Obama into vetoing an anti-settlement resolution: threatening to cut off aid to the PA. The European Union won't be able to do much, because some states will want to respond, others will not. EU states are heavily divided over the peace process, and act as a loose bloc with a basic interest in peace, rather than with a united foreign policy, because each have different interests.
16. @ David of Karmiel
Jewish Warrior   (05.19.11)
The UN General Assembly can vote on non-binding resolutions only. Any acceptance of the State of Palestine into the UN, or punitive action against Israel, can only be decided by the Security Council. The US will automatically veto it. As well as promises by Obama and Congressmen, Obama cannot afford to let it pass because the 2012 elections are coming up, and he faces a powerful pro-Israel bloc already angry with him, and Congressmen will likely threaten to cut off aid to the Palestinians just as they did to force Obama into vetoing the settlement resolution. The UN might recognize it, but when it comes to accepting Palestine or taking measures against Israel, its hands will be tied completely.
17. Why do Israeli solutions start out from retreat? Part 2
Marcella   (05.19.11)
Regarding the UN vote Evidence shows that after the war of 1967, land retreats have been caused by weak Israeli governments acting under diplomatic manipulation. That formula unfortunately still stands. It is unwise to dismiss concerns regarding the upcoming UN vote as "doomsday scenarios". As you will be the first to admit, Israel's international standing and sovereignty over the land have significantly diminished since that 1988 UN vote that you cite. ~~~~~~~~~~ - You write: A Palestinian state without ability to govern itself and without desire for democratic government is not a recipe for stability. What you've done is to describe every single country in the ME aside from Israel. That's NORMAL ME culture. And yet you're ready to capitulate and grant them a state. On the basis of what? Wouldn't that be a retreat such as the one in Gaza, where Israel got the rockets and the Arabs got the land? ~~~~~~~~~~~~ - You write: If Israel’s government is in favor of a Palestinian state .... then it is no less important to declare where such state should exist. The government? What about the people's opinion in all this? Does it count for anything at all? (see my TB 12) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - You write: In order not to turn this (a partial annexation) into a provocative move only, Israel can at the same time officially recognize Palestinian sovereignty over Arab population centers in Judea and Samaria... Provocation? Why would asserting Israel's sovereignty over any part of Judea and Samaria be considered a provocation? How such a thing could be considered a provocation in light of the real outrages that are verbally and physically perpetrated against the Jews? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Do you realize how your formula of retreat and recognition of Palestine leaves Israel smaller, weaker, with less sovereignty and less clout - in exchange for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING? Demands and pressure and violence would continue.
18. Whar about JORDAN? - Part 3
Marcella   (05.19.11)
I haven't listened to the US president's speech but I understand that he is making some enticing financial offers to JORDAN. Has it ever occurred to the Israeli government to suggest that maybe Jordan is the key to solving the refugee issue and the Judea and Samaria Arab population? Jordan is a country in great difficulty. Iran is looming over the area, they have serious political and ethnic/ tribal issues, and also lack of water and other resources. Maybe something could be arranged so that Israel and Jordan can achieve a closer cooperation and understanding. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The solution is to annex the whole area based on the original League of Nations agreements, and proceed from there, from a position of strength, to discuss certain issues. Also, What Israelis don't usually remember is that a contiguous Palestinian state would require the division of Israel in two in order to grant them a land corridor between Ramallah and Gaza.
19. THERE IS ALREADY A PALI STATE - IT'S CALLED JORDAN
PHK   (05.19.11)
AMAZING HOW STUPID EVEN THE BEST ISRAELIS ARE - THEY HAVE TOTALLY BOUGHT INTO THEIR ENEMIES' NARRATIVE, DISREGARDING ALL HISTORIC FACTS... THERE IS NO REMEDY FOR STUPIDITY....
20. #13 Ever heard of "United For Peace"?
Nour ,   One State   (05.19.11)
The UNGA is fully capable of admitting a new UN member based on the UFP mechanism already used successfully. That will be the fortunate outcome of an American hypocritical veto which we expect as always! Poor Americans, their broke empire is crumbling to pieces with their influence waning everywhere. I will not shed a tear to see them kneel to China one day!
21. #10 Jake, setting the boundaries
Elsie. ,   Gush Halav   (05.19.11)
#10, Jake, ok ,so why do you think it is Jewish land???? please don't come with "because G-D gave it to us"
22. Reply to David and Nour
CC ,   Not your business   (05.19.11)
To David, Karmiel: again David, "for the gazillionth of time" (C. Glick's term) the UN will not do a wretched thing! Why is this so completely hard for you to get??? The Palestinians will NOT get LEGALLY their state through the UN; all the threats of sanctions and embargos and whatnot are pure rubbish, unsubstantiated demagoguery! How many times must this be said clearly for the likes of you to comprehend? You are sadly by ignorance misrepresenting reality and fearmongering. Nour: you also are misrepresenting reality and fearmongering. But that's not my concern.
23. #5 as a Czech you should know better
Dan Cohen ,   Ramat Gan   (05.19.11)
...than to side with the Nazis of today.
24. "A Handful of Nutcases"
Yoel Meltzer ,   Israel   (05.19.11)
Yoaz Hendel shalom, I generally enjoy much of your writing and analysis even if I don't always agree. Same thing with this article. Having said that, there is one sentence in particular here which needs clarification. When you wrote "Politically speaking, with the exception of a handful of nutcases, there is nobody who wishes to settle at these sites these days", do you mean to say that there are no sane, rational, intelligent people that favor Israel establishing sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria? If so, then your assumption is wrong. There are many people today, myself included, who are certainly not "nutcases" yet fully support Israel establishing sovereignty over all of Judea and Samaria. Kol tuv. Yoel Meltzer
25. #4 the UN did NOT create Israel
ok ,   NJ, USA   (05.19.11)
The UN General Assembly has no such power, and of the several competing theories of international law, none assert that a state can derive its existence or legitimacy from the UN.
26. all judea and samaria should be annexed
alan ash ,   nyc   (05.19.11)
all of judea and samaria should be annexed -it is ours --- and its our fault that we let the arabs think otherwise . obamas speach is a scandel
27. #21, great question
Jake ,   USA   (05.19.11)
The West Bank is Jewish land because it is within Israel's historical borders. The same nation of Israel that has endured 2000 years of banishment and exile from their historical homeland, but has stubbornly survived and finally returned to reclaim what has always been theirs. The fact that Arabs have been living on Jewish land for several hundred years, affords them the basic human/civil rights that we all deserve as world citizens. However, it does not give them the right to establish their own country on land that does not belong to them.
28. President Obama's speech of today
Colleen ,   Louisiana, USA   (05.19.11)
Sir: this is the only way I am able to send a message to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Please forward to him if possible. Dear Mr. Netanyahu: This recent decision by our current president, Barak Obama, over the Israeli peoples pulling back to the 1967 borders is NOT the opinion of the majority of the citizens of the USA> We do not understand this current response from this president, nor do we approve or condone...rather condemn it! I would like to offer my sincere apologies on behalf of other American citizens who feel the same as I and my husband do. Israel is, and always will be, our friend and ally in an increasingly hostile world...especially in the Middle East! This president continues to embarrass me and others like me. So, the only thing I can do is apologize for his actions and words. Things WILL be better in 2012 when the American citizens vote this man out or office! Again, I apologize for his recent actions and words. I whole-heartedly support you and your fellow Israeli citizens. Thank you!
29. To: No. 7
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (05.19.11)
Since you will never have a state of your own (mostly because you lack the ability to create and maintain a viable state), the point is moot. Since the world has done nothing for you expect pay lip service and pour tons of money down a rathole, what makes you think any of that has changed? The only people that despise you more than do we are your brother Arabs. The rest of the world isn't far behind. Terror, violence and incessant bleating and whining have not endeared you to ANYONE.
30. Nour
zionist forever   (05.19.11)
If he wants to avoid problems Obama needs to tell the palestinians if they to to the General Assembly in September to bypass talks then the US will not recognize this state and get the Europeans to adopt a similar stance. Maybe they can say if the palestinians go it alone then there will be no financial aid. Its for their own good because if the palestinians go it alone then there can be no negotiation. Without negotiation all the palestinians can have is UN recognition but who will force Israel to pull out of the territory. Israel still has all the big guns. The UN can't force Israel to provide a transport corridor without which this state will be dead before its even born and there is a good chance israel will refuse it if this state is created by the UN. Once the parties are over and the palestinians realize that this is a real state they need to run now they will realize it won't happen without Israel blessings. You go it alone by the time the reality o needing to negotiate sets in it will be to late because it will be seen as treachery to make the concessions to Israel that must be made in order to reach a deal. You risk killing the entire cause if you rush this.
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