News
Woman sues Chevra Kadisha over funeral segregation
Raanan Ben-Zur
Published: 25.05.11, 00:03
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
31 Talkbacks for this article
1. Taliban Law or Common Sense?
emanon ,   uSA   (05.25.11)
The graveside, and prayer in general, is not place for discrimination. This practice of separation of sexes is senseless and only serves to alienate people from Judaism. I'd like to see this anachronistic practice dropped completely in all forms.
2. The rabbi waited for a bakshish.
Michael ,   California, USA   (05.25.11)
They'll take anything, those Hevre Kadisha rabbis. He will counter sue her for failing to make and negotiate an offering to him. The best solution is to allow women rabbis conduct burial ceremonies, like in America.
3. to Michael of California
JGrosman ,   Texas, USA   (05.25.11)
there is no such thing as a women Rabbi. If it was a religious funeral then you must respect the Rabbi that was hired. Just like I would go into a reform shul. There are rules and you must follow them. If you can not follow then do not go. It is about the death, not you.
4. Annoying, but not discriminatory
psyjew ,   NJ, USA   (05.25.11)
As long as both sides of the aisle are equal participants with equal access, etc., then women have no more of a claim to discrimiination than the men from whom they're separated. I think what she's really bothered by, as she writes in her filing, is not being able to "spend time" with her acquaintances. I'm sure the rabbi wasn't too understanding, but what he was doing was just annoying, not discriminatory.
5. Good for her for stadnig up against those crooks
Haim ,   Tel aviv   (05.25.11)
Not only do the Chevra Kadisha have the monopoly on funerals as they can charge what they want, they also force their religious so called values on others. This is 2011 not 1011 , i really hope this women wins her case and opens the gates to other claims. Well done to her for standing up her rights !
6. disgusting !!
rachel ,   usa   (05.25.11)
7. LT
Future ,   Jerusalem   (05.25.11)
1) Men were also instructed to stand separate. 2) This practice goes back to the time of the House of David. 3) This may not be your worldview but it is Torah Judaism and our ancestors ways. 4) You dont like it then convert to another religion and please dont procreate!
8. #2 Michael - Another wild stratement
BEN JABO ,   ISRAEL   (05.25.11)
When was the last time you attended an Orthodox funeral and saw a Rabbi with his hand extended for a sum of money ? The officiating clergyman in any religion is customarily given a gratuity after a service, including Weddings, Bar Mitzvahs & Funerals Where you like it or not, he too has to eat and take care of a family When was the last time you did something for nothing, other than to post a continual stream of nonsense ? Since this was an Orthodox Funeral, which was ordered according to the wishes of the family, they were entitled to set the parameters of would officiate and the positions where the mourners should be However, if you wish a female Rabbi to participate at yours, by all means, book one for the occasion Even in America, Women Rabbis conduct funerals upon request, not just because they're female I have yet to hear of a Woman Rabbi officiating at an Orthodox Funeral how about some proof of it having happened, at least once ? I sent you an EM today, read it
9. Lady, this is halacha!
Miriam ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
10. This was a Jewish funeral
Shalom Hartman   (05.25.11)
The deceased was being buried according to Jewish tradition. Therefore Jewish traditions were upheld throughout the cemetery. If this opportunist wishes, she can be buried in a non-Jewish ceremony and have whoever she likes, whereever they like
11. OY VEY! IMAGINE IF SHE HAD BEEN A COHEN!
stude ham   (05.25.11)
12. How about a campaign to remove the barriers at HaKotel?
Rachel ,   Tel Aviv, Israel   (05.25.11)
How long will women be treated as second-class citizens in the State of Israel? Why must we submit to Taliban-like segregation that is not even permitted in our law? It is time that women stop allowing men to dictate to us where we may sit on a bus, where we may stand to show a deceased friend or relative our last respects or even how and where we show our devotion to God. That is an anti-Talmudic discrimination enough to impress even the ayatollahs in Iran.
13. Shalom Hartman's opinion is far wiser...
(05.25.11)
than the court's decision. This was just another wanton attack on tradition, which has become a national sport. If you really think you have a fair complaint, first make sure it isn't an issue of personal pride.
14. Am I missing something? What is there to do at graveside
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (05.25.11)
other than to stand silently, listen to the words spoken and put a couple shovels of dirt on the grave? If you need to chitchat, go elsewhere, to use your iPad, go elsewhere, otherwise stand there, shut up and wait. Now at my funeral, I would like a lot of jokes and wine, not a traditional ceremony of serious words, I was never like that.
15. Hmmm, I hope she's going to donate the money -
Talula ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
if she wins (doubt it). I absolutely do NOT nor will I ever agree with men and women being separated - I think it's despicable, but if I was at a funeral and I found myself standing on the wrong side of a planter for 20 minutes, would I be bothered to file a law suit? HELL NO!!
16. #9 Lady Miriam people have a choice
Haim ,   Tel aviv   (05.25.11)
Hate to break it to you but this is 2011 and a democracy.People should be given a choice and it is up to the greiving familiy not a bunch corrupt religious crooks who never miss a chance not only to force their medevil religious so called values on others but also to make quick buck. No wonder they have the monoploly on such things. I hope this women wins her case and will open the doors to multiple claims against Chevera Kadisha.
17. She's wrong, it's a discrimination to men ;)
Eli   (05.25.11)
18. Can't see what the fuss is about
Talula ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
We have to accept that burial ceremonies (apart from Kibbutzim) are religious and separation between the sexes is part of that. When I'm forced at a cemetery to do the same as this woman, I don't feel I'm being singled out and humiliated, I understand and respect that that's how things are done in certain religious places. I have enough confidence and enough intelligence to know that outside the cemetery I do things my way – if I had to live 24/7 365 days a year segregated from men, I'd have something else to say – but half an hour for a burial? COME ON!!!
19. my heart goes out to this..
Larry ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
She obviously does not consider herself part of the Jewish tradition, but rather that of the western culture. My heart goes out to her that she must live here in Israel which still honors the Jewish tradition. Perhaps we can take up a collection that she be provided with a plane ticket to Los Angeles...
20. Some people just have nothing better to do with their time a
SF ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
21. Should be an option for the family to make.
Rebecca ,   Modi'in   (05.25.11)
The Chevra Kadisha should make make separation optional for the FAMILY to decide, before the ceremony begins. As for running down the Chevra Kadisha, how many of you are prepared to wash dead bodies? It's hard on the emotions, and hard physically, sometimes its dirty and disgusting. In places where there is no paid CK it sometimes hard to get volunteers. They deserve whatever they get paid.
22. Larry, Larry, Larry
Aviela ,   KochavYaakov, Israel   (05.25.11)
Even the Holy Temple did not have separate entrances for men and women. Pre-dating the traditions of the diaspora, people were far less hyper about separate everything all the time. Perhaps you should learn before deciding to condescend.
23. #22 I didn't know that.
Talula ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
So what has changed since the doors to the Holy Temple were open to one and all? Could it be that men have evolved into sex crazed fiends that cannot keep their eyes off a woman, and choose to keep them separated because they can't keep their sexual thoughts and urges under control? That's not a woman's fault or problem. And how come all the believers here don't know the answer?
24. #21 However...
Talula ,   Israel   (05.25.11)
Yes, it's a truly horrible job, but they do it because it's part of their belief that bodies should be cleansed before being buried. They get paid for that. But what about all the backhanders (bribes) they receive from desperate families asking that their loved ones not be buried on the outskirts of the cemetery, because they committed suicide? What about all the money they receive, also in bribes, to bend certain rules? You know, if you're going to be holy, then keep it holy.
25. # 21
Mike Carmel ,   Rishon le Zion   (05.25.11)
No they don't deserve it. Nurses get paid less and they DO deserve more. If you have been to a funeral you will realize that these workers maintain a complete emotional detachment from the event and that the whole process is like a corrupt mafia which we certainly do NOT have to accept. I remember when my wife's uncle died the bastards insisted that his widow write them out a big fat cheque BEFORE they agreed to bury him. They are disgusting. They just want to get it over and done with so they can go home and pocket the money.
26. #11 No need to imagine
BEN JABO ,   ISRAEL   (05.25.11)
According to custom, she is allowed to be on the cemetery, if it's a blood relative, mother, father, sister, brother OR a husband I have never, ever seen a woman throiwng a shovefull of dirton the coffin, or carrying one either, for that matter Since she's a lady, it's presumed that she would want to follow the "rules" When my wife was pregnant, we had a family funeral, she stayed in the car, outside of the cemtery grounds
27. #25 What would they have done
BEN JABO ,   ISRAEL   (05.25.11)
If the corpse was buried & then payment was refused, dig him up and force him to pay ? Many people make funeral arrangements and buy grave space in advance, avoiding last minute confusion & pressure on the family It's like buying an Insurance Policy, you know that serious matters have been attended to, before they arise Saurely you have car insurance, paid for in advance, they won't let you buy a policy after you have wrecked the car, ditto for fire or property Insurance, pay up front !!
28. Larry, Larry, Larry: Not a Jewish tradition any more
Michael ,   California, USA   (05.26.11)
Orthodox Judaism is the only "tradition" you might be speaking of. Orthodox Jews are a minority which will become minute in the world soon. The largest group of Jews in the world are secular, atheists. Then, following Orthodox, come as a group Conservatives, Reform, Reconstructionist and "other" religious Jews. Now, let's count together: Non-believers, Conservatives, Rform, Reconstructionists, and most of the "others" would not segregate between men and women at a funeral. Naturally, you will find an exception here and there, but as a group practice I am sure I have my numbers right. If this woman doesn't prevail in court it will be a gross injustice. Kol hakavod to her, I join with the crowd of well sayers.
29. Israel
Leah ,   Panama   (07.13.11)
Israel is no women place...what a shame. Haredi movement treats women the same way extremist arabs does.
30. Wow!
kal ,   Forest Hills USofA   (07.15.11)
When I first read the title,I was sure I had misread; -but alas, this was not the case.... Has it come to this, where not even a ceremony as solemn and somber as this, to honor the dead, has been reduced to that of a dog and pony show, -simply because of one person's selfish, petty adgenda? And perhaps saddest and most distessing of all, a number of the commenters seem to applaud such simple-mindedness! Unfathomable... Comparing our traditions to the taliban?! I'm simply speechless. I fully respect everyone's right to express their opinion, but when it goes so far as to defy logic, something must be said.
Next talkbacks
Back to article