Of course that would include your self.So,what's your point?

Your schoolyard remarks are pathetic.

After an abortive attempt lost in the gears of Ynet, I have stayed out of this. Until now. I hope that everyone reads #27's earnest and impassioned statement. And I hope that everyone realizes that Jews feel the same way about their faith. And just like #27, Jews also have every right to feel this way. The Scriptural response to this is: allow people to treasure the beliefs they treasure. The only time that hurts you is if their beliefs require them to hurt you, for example, if their faith tells them to blow themselves up hoping to kill some Jews in so doing. But even then, the danger is not the personal faith perspective, but the sinful action. I'd like to add - being on-topic - that if people want to be Jews, let them, whether they are Jews by birth or by choice (and halachic conversion).

All of us know that God is not interested in human sacrifice. But are you aware that the Hebrew Scriptures, the Talmud, as well as the New Testament teach clearly that the death of the righteous has atoning power? When the Mashiach, the totally righteous one, laid down his life, it was the ultimate act of atonement in human history Regarding Isaiah 53.Why cannot it be the nation as a whole? If you take all the references to the Servant in Isaiah , you will see that sometimes it refers to the nation as a whole and sometimes to an individual, for example chapter 42 some rabbinic traditions apply to the Mashiach. Usually the references are ambigious: sometimes referering to the Nation and sometimes to the Servant. However halfway through Chapter 44 it is explicitly an individual. For example chapter 50 is clearly about an individual. In Isaiah 53,The suffering servant is completely innocent. According to the Torah if Israel is righteous it will be blessed and if Israel sins there are curses on Israel. If Israel as a nation is righteous then Israel would not suffer.

regarded as simple minded,stop making stereotypes.In all groups there are smart and dumb people.

You are barking up the wrong tree with your christian idolatry. If you understood the Hebrew you would understand that even when Isaiah speaks in the singular in regards to the the servant he still is speaking in regards to the Nation of Israel as a singular entity. Isaiah is referring to the Nation of Israel... not the Mashiach and especially not about Yehoshua ben Yosef. Origen, the early church leader from Greece that to this day shapes Christian thought even admitted in his response to the Pagan Celsus that Isaiah 53 was about the nation of Israel and only Israel. In regards to the atoning power of the death of a righteous man... the death does not atone for anything; if it did that would equate to a human blood sacrifice. The death of a righteous man will cause others to recognize their own faults and repent and turn back to Hashem. The death does nothing more than awaken Hashem's people, making them introspective. Saying that his death somehow can magically atone for your sins is down right pagan. I suggest that you go listen to Rabbi Singer's from Outreach Judaism teachings on Isaiah 53... heck all of of his teachings. Again you need to abandon this cult you find yourself wrapped up in and repent and live the rest of your life out as a righteous gentile. Again I only say that because of love.

There are rabbinic interpretations do agree with the point that an individual is mentioned. In fact the words used in Isaiah are clear. for example Isaiah 50:6 "6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting." The Hebrew context is referring to atonement by the suffering servant who is an individual. How can Isaiah as a prophet rebuke Israel for not repenting at times and then say that Israel is the suffering servant? No, the suffering servant takes our sins onto Himself. Prophet Zechariah 12:10 writes about how Israel will accept the Mashiach who was rejected. The story of Abraham and Itshak is interesting also because G-d provides a sacrifice. You have mentioned rabbi Tovia Singer from Outreach Judaism. I have listened to a debate of Dr Michael Brown who is a jewish believer in Jesus and rabbi Singer in an open debate. I think reading the Tanakh independently is important too since sometimes we depend on people too much.

You really want to play this with me… again you have chosen the wrong person to play this game with. In Isaiah 50:6 you must ask yourself who is speaking. Hashem isn't speaking, he spoke in the previous passage, it isn't Isaiah because Isaiah is the narrator… he is telling a story here. Isaiah is being shown these things; he is recounting them to us… kind of like a play. In verse 10 it states: "Who among you reveres the Lord and heeds the Voice of his Servant?..." So it appears that in verse 6 Isaiah was quoting Hashem's servant. So who is G_d's servant in the four suffering servant songs in Isaiah? Well let’s look around Chapter 50 and see if we can find where Isaiah identifies the Servant… found it: Isaiah: 49: 1-3 "Listen, O coastlands, to me, And give heed, O nations afar: The Lord appointed me before I was born, He named me while I was in my mother's womb. He made my mouth like a sharpened blade, He hid me in the shadow of His hand, and He made me like a polished arrow; He concealed me in His quiver. And He [Hashem] said to me, "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory."" Israel is given the role of the servant in the four suffering servant songs in Isaiah. The role doesn't change, Israel is Hashem's servant, if you go back and read the suffering servant songs you will see over and over again Israel being identified as the servant. The individual it speaks of is the Nation of Israel as a single spirit, as a single entity, as a single unit. The only times the servant is given an identity in the suffering servant songs of Isaiah is the Nation of Israel. Now for Chapter 53… well you really need to read a little behind it, see chapters and verses in the Torah were a Christian invention, start reading at 52:13 and go from there. Isaiah isn't narrating Hashem nor the Servant (Israel), no right now he is speaking for the Kings of the nations of the world in the Messianic age that have just witnessed what was being in described in chapter 52 which starts with "Awake awake O Zion" the Narrator is announcing what he has seen here, telling Israel to get ready, it then goes in verse 9: "Raise a shout together, O ruins of Jerusalem! For the Lord will comfort His people [His people being Israel!], will redeem Jerusalem. The Lord will bare His holy arm in the sight of all the nations, And the very ends of earth shall see The victory of our G_d. Turn, turn away, touch naught unclean as you depart from there; Keep pure, as you go forth from there, You who bear the vessels of the Lord! For you will not depart in haste, Nor will you leave in flight; For the Lord is marching before you, The G_d of Israel is your rear guard. [Hashem now speaks:] "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, Be exalted and raised to great heights…" Now anyone that has ever read a book can understand context clues and grasp that the Narrator is talking about the Nation of Israel right there… talks about how Hashem will personally save Israel and restore Jerusalem, and then without pause the Narrator quotes G_d talking about his servant prospering. It then goes on to talk about how the kings were astonished and gives their response. If you read chapter 53 with the correct understanding that Isaiah intended that the servant is Israel and the persons speaking in chapter 53 until verse 6 are the Kings of the world at the onset of the Messianic age you will see where actual history unfolds telling the story of the plight of the nation of Israel's exile over the past two thousand + years. It is an amazing peace of Prophetic poetry that has come true and will continue to come true.

I just read Zechariah 12:10… here it is… but just for kicks I will include verse 9: "In that day I will all but annihilate all the nations that came against Jerusalem. But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born." I don't see anything in there about Mashiach… instead I see the act that was mentioned in Isaiah 52 that so astonished the Kings of the Nation to the point where they lamented what was in Chapter 53 until verse 6 of Isaiah and what they had done to G_d's servant Israel. I see Hashem moving his servant Israel to mourn for the loss of life that was wrought as punishment on the world for their crimes against the nation of Israel over the past 2 thousand + years. Isaiah is rebuking Israel of that day and age that he lived in. The book of Isaiah is jumping between what was occurring right then and there while Isaiah was alive and what G_d was showing Isaiah from the future. Evidently you are having a problem separating the timelines within Isaiah. You have an Israel of the day and time of Isaiah and you have the suffering servant of G_d that is the future Israel. It isn't saying that Israel the suffering servant is without sin; instead in the matters that they were persecuted and massacred for they were blameless. The world falsely accused Israel, tortured, persecuted, and massacred the people of Israel while they were in exile. Whenever something went wrong Jews were blamed… still to this day. Whenever G_d brought punishment on a nation it was the fault of the Jews and the nations being punished reined their anger and resentment down upon the heads of the Jews. Go back through Isaiah 52 and read through Isaiah 53. Whenever it say's servant replace it with Israel [as it was meant to be understood] and you will quickly realize the context of this scripture given a retrospective look at our History and all that Israel has endured while in exile, makes much more since than some pagan fairy tale of a virgin birth man that died, took all the sins of the world upon himself, defeated death, rose again… and surprise he is really god; and if you believe in him you get a get out of jail free card story that has much more to do with Zoroastrianism, ancient Egyptian pagan beliefs and sun worship, and ancient Greek and Roman mythology than it ever will in regards to Judaism. Once again out of love… turn from your false pagan cult and live your life as a righteous gentile. Reading Tanakh is fine if you have the proper background and Jewish teaching to understand the Jewish writers of the Tanakh… I again suggest you go listen to Rabbi Singer's teachings.

Isaiah 49:5 and 6 5And now the LORD says— he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength— 6he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.” Regarding Isaiah 53. aside from one passing reference in Midrash Rabbah (where part of one verse is interpreted with reference to the righteous), a specific identification of Isaiah 53 with Israel is not found in any Rabbinic literature until almost one thousand years after Jesus. (In other words, it is not found in the Talmuds, the Targums, or in the Midrashim.) Therefore, the view that Isaiah 53 spoke of Israel can hardly be considered a standard Rabbinic interpretation. When Israel is used in this context (as an individual) it something like cheering for a sportsman, where the name of his country is used to identify with him. The Mashiach is the perfect representation of Israel. Although there are ambiguities in the Hebrew text, the passage clearly speaks of a time of national mourning in Israel over one slain, resulting in the spiritual cleansing of the nation (Zech. 12:10-13:1). One of the oldest Jewish interpretations of this passage, found in the Talmud, refers Zechariah 12:10 to the death of Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering Messiah of Jewish tradition. Regarding paganism it is outright incorrect since pagan parallels are used to compare the accounts of creation, the flood, Avraham,Moses and if you know the topic you will see distortions to this argument. Psalm 110:1 of David also refers to the Mashiach for example. G-d wants to reach out to His people out of His love and mercy. The Tanakh points to Him who takes away our sins and redeems us.

ynet has so far refused to publish the facts. Is. 53 is mentioned twice in Talmud (Ber. 5a). BOTH times it specifies that it refers to the Messiah. Targum Yonatan explicitly specifies the Mashiakh. You can argue "Rabbi Singer" for the rest of your life but he will never be competent authority to contradict Talmud OR the Targum. If you'd get out of your simplistic ignorance you'd find that while Is. 53 DOES speak of the Messiah, it CANNOT refer to a man-god. #3 is on the right track noting the rejection of the NT (null testament) is a requirement to convert. But then he goes simplistic playing a name game that is not supported by Halakhah and that Christians easily circumvent (see, inter alia, #17; variants go on forever). What Halakhah prohibits is belief in a divine man-god, adding a supersessory displacement book, supersession and displacement of Torah & Halakhah. These all eliminate the Christian man-god idol--by whatever name. Nothing else can filter them out. Part of your problem is that you don't realize that rabbis (much less an anti-missionary cult) are no more expert in defining Christianity than Christians are expert in defining Torah. Yad l'Akhim are so ignorant they can't even distinguish those who combat Christianity from Christians. If you'd go to the expert in combating Christianity--me--you'd become able, for the first time in more than 1800 years, to win this battle instead of perpetuating your 1800 year losing streak ad infinitum. I teach how to win over Christianity. You won't get there by remaining ignorant or contradicting Talmud. Paqid Yirmeyahu Paqid 16, The Netzarim, Ra'anana, Israel Israeli Torah-observant Jew: Teimani, Baladi, Dor Dai Advocate for Discrete Logic as Hermeneutic Halakhic Authority Welcoming all who choose to keep Torah (When questions to me go unanswered, they have refused to post it. Find our reply in our Web Café at www.netzarim.co.il)

Your website appears to fit the bill of exactly what kind of people this article describes. Jews: beware!

(it's a self-answering question for the anonymous "observer" #43)

How are you?