Judaism against women
Shulamit Aloni
Published: 12.09.11, 00:02
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1. Damn straight!
Henry from New York ,   USA   (09.12.11)
I applaud this author for her bravery with regard to the bus and whole-heartedly agree with her. My girlfriend is one of the smartest and most capable people I know. She works about 16 hours a day in the Israeli Air Force, training, doing her regular work and studying for her academic exams. Every weekday is a hell of hardwork for the betterment of the State which she does glady. When I look at her I can't help but feel a burst of pride. I don't know any man more determined than her, and with people like her around, as well as other smart and capable women I know, I find it laughable that anyone thinks women are inferior to us. Another important point to note is that if you do not allow women the same oppurtunity as men, you have half of an entire population unable to fully contribute to society. Why do you think Israel's neighbours are in such a bad way compared to her? They have half the people functioning as slaves to their husbands. In Israel you have women as equal citizens without restrictions except those imposed by the ultra-religious. A society cannot hope to make progress if half its people are enslaved (and no Palestinians are not enslaved Salma, if you are about to comment on this, of course you might be by your new government after September, poor Salma)). Israel cannot allow radicals to encroach on women's rights.
2. A Picture of Black Hats?
Noach ,   Atlanta, US   (09.12.11)
Ok you write an article about segregation being disgusting... I am totally on your side. But as a Charedi Jew who proudly wears a black hat... what's the deal with a picture of chasidim? Where's the segregation? That's just a picture of men. Is there no one willing to learn enough about the charedim to at least understand that just like non-orthodox are not all the same... so too there are plenty of flavors of charedim... And as a Charedi I believe women ARE MUCH MORE HOLY THEN MEN. and I am NOT in the minority... the commentaries you see charedim learning so much is filled with explicit stories of women being more important, holy and on higher spiritual levels than men. Don't let some people on a bus confuse you just becuase they are wearing the clothes. After-all if I judged everyone by the clothes they wore you would probably be in trouble too. I commend you for standing up for your rights but please don't let yourself be as close minded as that which you seek to expose.
3. Lady you don't know what you are talking about
Miriam ,   Israel   (09.12.11)
Judaism and halacha hold women to a higher degree than men. A woman is the queen of her home and must be treated with respect. The reform movement is a disgrace to Hashem. It distorts our religion to meet the needs of a minority. Segregated buses serve a purpose. One word..MODESTY. Personally I think that the buses should be separated side by side. All seats behind the driver for men, the other side for women. My husband and I use the 492 bus from Netivot to Jerusalem. We sit together anywhere on the bus. No one has ever said a word to us.
4. shulamit alone. all alone.
izzy d   (09.12.11)
firstly the build up to the actual part where a "hate crime" against women materializes never occurs. In fact, it would seem that shulamit would present as evidence that religious radicals treat woman as lesser human beings is that old old tired punching bag... "segregated buses". aside from purposely provoking the religious by sitting in the front, despite a full bus, nothing more then someone yelling "woman to the back of the bus" happens. oooooh, radical stuff indeed. Now mrs. Aloni, I am not religious. but I do not understand how you can draw any lessons and thus reach a solution, from the sillier aspects of the religious religious (lets not delude ourselves that the "segregating religious" are anything but a minority). if being religious is so crazy to you then their woman are also crazy. THEY ARE PART OF IT!
5. Aloni. Meretz leader. "We are a nefarious (criminal)people"
This is how she speaks about the general Israeli/Jewish populace. Yes, you can imagine she would save her finest venom for the Religious part of her "nefarious" people. She's an embarrassment to Jews and Israel. She gives interviews in English, her credentials as a former MK displayed, saying that Israel always defends itself by crying "anti-semitism" "it's a trick we always use", the would-be insider tell-all working against and defaming her own country in the eyes of the world. Traitor! Who CARES what this female thing says. Bee-atch.
6. She espouses "care for others, allow every group...to expres
...to express themselves"....unless they express the desire to sit separately on a bus from one religious community to the next -- a bus on which Shulamit would have no occasion to be on if not to instigate and create an article from nothing. Man: "Hey, lady, we'd like to pray on the way to work and in our community we don't pray sitting mushed together with women...would you mind sitting with the other ladies over there?" Aloni: "I'm NOT moving!" Bus Driver: "Eh. Let her sit where she wants" Man: shrugs, not appreciating the disrespect and intolerance this woman has shown for his religious customs on a bus populated by religious passengers, wondering how this woman ended up on this bus anyway. = BIG NEWS ARTICLE: "Judaism Against Women!"
7. Judaism against Women
Roxy ,   israel   (09.12.11)
Religious ,in general will say they like women as well as any other,But in their proper place. They assign us that place.They don't let us do it ourselves nor will they allow us a voice in the decision. They will not allow us that we have a head to think, and a heart to feel and a soul to aspire... That's the way we are liked. You degrade us, and then ask why are we degraded-- You shut our mouths and then ask why we don't speak-- You close your seminaries to us and then ask why we don't know more
8. a disgusting life in the making, in Israel
Yosef   (09.12.11)
The sagregation is disgusting, because the men are disgusting, because the books they are learning from are disgusting, because Egged is disgusting, because our govt is disgusting for allowing this ignoble behavior (an islamic one) to fester in our society. Let it continue, and this country of ours will become an full fledged islamic one in order to blend with our neighbors and be disgusting
9. the truth
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (09.12.11)
I ride the 40 mehedrin bus nearly every day in Jerusalem. It is not rare to see a woman sitting in the men's side and I have never ever seen one man bother a lady to move. I also some times can not find a seat in the men's section so I go to the women's side to sit. No one, never ever, has said a word to me. What does happen is that if a woman sits in the men's side, a man will not sit next to her, just like when I sit in the women's side, no women sits next to men. There is a sign posted in bus stating that anyone who bothers some one about where they sit may be subject to a fine. What Sulamit is trying to do, is cover the facts to push her own adjenda. Let her go on the bus with her camera crews. She will be disappointed. All of what I have said is the absolute truth, with out any exaggeration.
10. Rejecting religious extremism
Israeli grandma   (09.12.11)
I too have ridden the buses Jerusalem/ Bnei Brak, sitting in the front. There was some comment, but I did not react and sat silent. There is now an appreciation among the "Haredi" public that attempts to enforce gender separation on public transport is wrong, but on the usually crowded buses, girls and women have been TRAINED to go to the back of the bus, even if they have to stand for a long journey. However, Shulamit Aloni to make her point, does not acknowledge that the majority of the Haredi community does not agree to this artificial separation on public transport and sees it for what it is, yet another Humra!.
11. Not true!
Shayna Lightman   (09.12.11)
As a "hareidi" woman, a business person, a thinking person, I say that the very premise that women are "subservient" is false, made up by the likes of Shulamit Aloni and her ilk. The author is known for her hatred of all things religious - yet she merited to have hareidi grandchildren living in Bnei Brak! I have sat at the front of the bus, not knowing the route was "mehadrin". I was asked to move politely - after first checking there was space further behind. I did move, grumbling to the woman who I sat down beside further back. Her reaction? Why are you complaining? Do you really want men jolting you every second? This is our right! I tried to argue with her more but could see (and she convinced me) that this is not about better or worse - it's about different
12. central issue in Middle East
R Blum   (09.12.11)
This is the most central issue in the Middle Eastern region since it divides East & West. Judaism in the West is advanced & stands up for human rights of all. May the Judaism that is evolving here turn away from the retrogression damaging women's lives to swell male egos in the East. The light unto the nations must truly radiate light.
13. Judaism against women
Marcie ,   U.S.A.   (09.12.11)
Working women have money! Money helps to fund causes! Causes get new laws passed! Be strong women of Israel, band together and demand change. Don't stop until the change is felt!
14. Shulamit Aloni
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (09.12.11)
As Minister of Education, Shulamit Aloni decided to stop high school kids from visiting the death camps in Europe. Her reason? She was concerned that if the kids visited, they would not vote for her political party because they would become "too Right wing". Enough said.
15. shulamit aloni- "judaism against women".
sjoerd ruurd van der ,   mankindnation/land..   (09.12.11)
discrimination, segregation, people-trafficking, slavery, apartheid etc. of women, of any people, also individually, should be forbidden by law, with very serious punishment, when it happened/happens in/for every country/people, everywhere,always etc....
16. Gender Bias :-)
M. Hartley ,   Atlanta, US   (09.12.11)
I wouldn't want to be some chauvinistic dork, when he finds out that God is as much female as male. What I don't understand, at all, is the fact that a person's "Jewishness" is determined by the very women, who are relegated to the back of the bus by some people. Maybe men can't stand the fact that it's "Mama's baby; Daddy's maybe." When I was very young, I couldn't understand why my brother could relieve himself standing up behind a tree and I, trying to do the same, ended up with wet clothes and squishy shoes. Then one day, when I happened to see this brother in the bathtub, the mystery was solved. I promptly demanded that my mother affect a change. I didn't understand until later what this wise woman then told me: "Baby Girl, I promise that there'll be a day in the not too distant future, when you'll realize that being blessed with 'one of these' will get you 'one of those' any time you want." How right she was!!!
17. Don't throw out baby w/ the Bathwater
David ,   New York, NY   (09.12.11)
The problem isn't that women are "less" than men Shulamit, its that they want to follow laws that limit gazing on women regardless of age. One problem of liberal progressives in Israel (anywhere) is they take something that is done for a pure reason and attempt to ascribe sinister motives to it. If Egged instead let women sit in the front and had a bunch of seats turned to face the rear for men to sit in (so they wouldn't have to gaze on the women) it would accomplish the same thing! I'm not religious myself - but I do respect what they stand for and to suggest that they look "down" on women is a stupid, malicious thing to say.
18. a misrepresentation of religious lifestyle
zionist forever   (09.12.11)
This is not treating women as some kind of second class citizen only certain busses that go through haredi areas are segregated and the reason for that is men should only sit next to their wife and the wife next to her husband and if they are single or not with their partner then they should sit with a member of the same sex. The religious women want this gender segregation just same as the men do because they share the same culture. These religious women are not feminists nor do they want to be. They just want to raise a family want to live a Torah lifestyle and where is the law that says if a woman doesn't live a secular lifestyle she is oppressed? It might not be the reform way but then again the reform way but there are good reasons. Then again reform are in no position to criticize the orthodox way because they are against all Halacha so its only natural they would be against gender segregation. The idea that the religious seek to brainwash students is not only not true but it is an insulting comment. Lets also not forget the way the orthodox do things is the way the Torah says it should be done, the reform change the rules whenever it suits them to fit in with their secular lifestyle. I have a cousin who is a rabbi and whilst she has to dress modestly and she does not go near men she is not married to ( even relatives ) she is treated like a princess by her husband because in Judaism the woman is supposed to be treated well.
19. The Torah was given to The House of Israel & the children of
Moshe ,   Usa   (09.12.11)
Israel. The House of Israel is referred to as Jewish women as they are more moral & ethical than us men & they bear our children. And the children of Israel as the Jewish men & children. Judaism has always believed that women are superior than Jewish men. Moshe
20. All religions are ...
Jules   (09.12.11)
... ancient substitutes for real scientific knowledge. At the genetic level, the difference between men and women is just ONE chromosome (the man's Y-chromosome is actually simpler than woman's X-chromosome) out of 46. TEACH ALL KIDS SCIENCE !!! Chemistry and biology must be made compulsory subjects in Yeshivas.
21. women are second class
martin ,   new jersey, USA   (09.12.11)
great article i agree that ultr-Orthodox men seek separaton from women and at times seem to make them second class, but you didn't have to put an add for a half naked bikini clad woman next to the article
22. Silly title.
Steve   (09.12.11)
Why not title this piece "God against women," or "Moses hates women." (?) If you believe rabbis are wrong in their interpretation of Torah, fine. Rabbis are human. Why not title the piece, "Rabbis against women." (?)
23. Will someone tell these 'Rabbis'...
Daniel Amos ,   Toronto, Canada   (09.12.11)
... the Torah and Zohar teach the following: 1). The Shechinah rests upon whoever has a wife and not on one that does not. 2). All women are in the secret of the Shechinah. 3). Adam called Eve, a bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh, ie, she was created equal with man. 4). The Shechinah Herself is feminine in principle. Misogyny has NO place in Judaism. Please don't disgrace the religion. Shalom.
24. In the closet
Charles   (09.12.11)
Most pro segragation are closet homosexuals. They prefer sitting next to men on their long journeys...with romance in the air. Bumpty bump
25. I agree
Bob ,   Studying in Mass   (09.12.11)
As a Jew who went to Yeshiva school in Brooklyn and is now studying in Umass. I agree with this article. I find it appalling that many religious women, which many of them are smart individuals, allow themselves to be treated this way. Many of them are just brainwashed into thinking it is okay for women to be of lesser use to society because they are born biologically different. The fact that they don't see that as a sociological problem annoys me. I had a teacher in one of my hebrew classes who was a female said, "The hole 20th century notion the men and women are equal is wrong. We are different creatures." I just don't get it, you don't have to think of yourself as a certain way because you were born into that body.
26. Discrimination of any kind is not Torah
vicky ,   Ashkelon Israel   (09.12.11)
In fact women should be held in high esteem because we continue the line of Judaism. Its up to Wives, mothers, and daughters to remind their brain washed men of this fact. Fanatasism breeds hatred, and that is also not Torah.
27. reformed = non Jewish
yoni ,   tel aviv   (09.12.11)
reformed judaism has nothing to do with real judaism they just call it judaism to try to get power among jews. this article is nonsense. women have just as much rights in religious circles as anywhere else. they have a different role but have the rights to do what they want. many many orthodox women go to university and have high positions. this is an article looking for a headline with no substance of truth
28. Judaism is not against women.
Terry ,   Eilat - Israel   (09.12.11)
But Shulamit Aloni is most certainly against Judaism. She picks the most extreme example, then generalizes it. That's against the rules of logic (but definitely in the rules of leftist demagoguery), you don't generalize from the particular to the general, that's called a fallacy. Not even 5% of Jews believe in such segregation on buses. In the meantime, Aloni ignores a religion that REALLY is against women.
29. Not sure who is worse here, Aloni or haredi thugs
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (09.12.11)
Aloni is the woman who calls me a criminal for living in the Jewish homeland. Does she have the right to ride the bus and sit in the front? Absolutely yes. Are the haredi men disgusting in their organized abuse of women - definitely yes. Just look at their behavior outside the religious girls school in Beit Shemesh where haredi men threaten and terrorize six year old girls. So yes - let Shula ride on the bus. But Shula, I have news for you: "settlers" are human beings too and we have every right to live in the and of Israel (unless you support Palestinian apartheid).
30. Not the full story
Shlomo ,   TA, Israel   (09.12.11)
The extremists are wrong - no doubt. But Shulamit is one of the biggest anti-religious public figures we have. she could have also pointed out the blatant sexual harassment of women in Army from the earliest days of the State until today (Moshe Dayan ring a bell???) Yes there are problems in religious parts of society - but you gotta tell the whole story!
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