Jewish Scene
Women's singing debate reaches court
Kobi Nahshoni
Published: 13.09.11, 15:04
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24 Talkbacks for this article
1. dismissed
colin   (09.13.11)
Y> as ynet calls this traiter is an untruthful liar. He entered the army to attempt to preach his torah and nothing else In the IDF an order by an officer who ordered this Y to return to the hall was disobeyed and not the singing that influenced his dismissal.What will" Y" do if the enemy sent in lady soldiers singing RUN AWAY
2. #1 explain
Israel Israeli ,   Tel Aviv   (09.13.11)
Imagine I ask my secretary to watch a movie with me, and she refuses. Can I fire her?
3. Bravo to this young man but I fear the anti-Semitic court
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (09.13.11)
will dismiss him. Moaners and complainers say the religious don't serve and this man and others joined. There is no military reason to force him to hear women sing and that is against Orthodoxy. The commander set these young men up for a confrontation and then dismissed them. The commander is the guilty one for causing the problem that he could have easily avoided. I wish the young man luck, but with a court who loves arabs more than it does Jews and Hashem he faces a tough battle.
4. There's something missing here...
Michael Davison ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (09.13.11)
The article fails to state whether attendance at the event was mandatory or voluntary. If it was a mandatory event that all cadets HAD to attend, "Y" hasn't got a leg to stand on. No military is a democracy. There are rules in the military, rules that no one is exempt from. What would happen to a military if every soldier were allowed to decide which rules to follow and which he would break? On another front, what will happen to such a cadet of an enemy puts up loudspeakers and plays the voices of women singing? Will they run away, deserting their posts and allowing the enemy free access? Each of us who ever served in a military knows what it's like to get orders you don't like, but we live through it, unless the orders are clearly illegal.
5. Y is a hero - Kiddush Hashem
Ben Packer ,   Jerusalem   (09.13.11)
Y is a hero and should be commended for his bravery and dedication to halacha! the previous post is written by an obvious anti-semite.
6. to the commander
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (09.13.11)
He made a decision based on ignorance of Jewish law. It really is not proper for men to hear women sing. OK, every one makes a mistake. But not to admit you ignorance is arrogant, and the commander should have re-instated the soldier and admitted his ignorance and learned from the mistake. When a commander's ego is so big that it blocks his ability to think, it is the commander who should be sacked, not the soldier. The soldier at least did not lie to himself, rather the commander is forcing another to suffer for his own stupidity. I do not think that the IDF will profit from actions like this.
7. #1 Colin - what a fool
Shalom Hartman   (09.13.11)
Colin, there is a slight difference between "pikuach nefesh" - ie a life-endangering situation and a girl singing solo in an auditorium. Trust me, these guys are the first who would give their lives to saving others. These soldiers are disciplined, determined and full of faith. Y is quite correct. If he had remained, he would have given the message that this is acceptable behavior. It is not! The army is quite capable of finding at least one other singer. The Israeli army and the Israeli people need to make a strategic decision - are they going to fight halacha all the way and distance themselves again from the religious community, or are they going to truly be a people's army and respect religious law.
8. Women sing? Oy Vey, Chilul hashem!
Avi ,   TA   (09.13.11)
Israel can't talk about backwards societies, We are becoming more backwards than most of our neighbors.
9. #4
Gilon   (09.13.11)
Yes there are rules in the military when it comes to training, in times of war and when maintaining overall discipline. But the rules have nothing to do by forcing religious Jews to sit and listen to a woman sing. Ridiculous!
10. a army of women don t win war
david ,   raananna   (09.13.11)
11. singing women
Roman   (09.13.11)
if the enemy ever uses this against a bunch of religious soldiers- are they going to run away with their pants full? The army is not a playschool- what if every soldier wanted to do what he feels like it? Some Army- I pity the commanders who have to train such a bunch of whimpy men.
12. No court would ever convict...
Gideon Reader ,   USA   (09.13.11)
...them. My lovely and talented lady; my wife of 44 years duration, is a sweet natured and patient person who has put up with me for what must seem to her ever and a week. But,...she can not carry a tune in a bucket. Her musical talents seem never to have arrived along with her other abilities. When she bustles about the homestead, doing her imitation of Broadway or past & current tunes. the cats run and hide. I do too. It is NOT a nice thing. Notwithstanding the religious imprecations and implications regarding listening to the siren songs, drawing the young men's minds astray, I do find some fellowship with them. I hear the lady sisng? I flee for the hills.
13. #1: a soldier who won't listen to a woman sing is a traitor?
david ,   new york   (09.13.11)
how did your brain get there? i guess a soldier who who won't eat non-kosher is also a traitor. perhaps a soldier who prays is also a traitor? seems to me like a good deal of the officer corps are traitors. without all those traitors, we wouldn't have much of an army.
14. IDF Has Rules About Illegal Orders
EGGM ,   Petah Tikva, Israel   (09.14.11)
If you are given an illegal order, you must follow it but complain afterwards. Only if an order is clearly illegal (i.e. shooting civilians for no reason), must a soldier refuse it. This rule has existed since 1956, and has worked reasonably well. The Haredim are crying about how the army is not religious enough, but the army is already too religious, and no one is asking them. What's missing is a government without Haredi parties that can put more pressure on this problematic sector.
15. to nr.8.
sjoerd ruurd van der ,   mankindnation/land..   (09.13.11)
your opinion in your talkback is right, to a certain level, except the category of good-willing (jewish) people, at my view.
16. female singing
chaim witz ,   lima, ecuador   (09.13.11)
But, what went wrong? Did she sing out of tune?
17. He must be mentally sick
Haim ,   TA   (09.14.11)
If the "soldier" in question upon hearing a female soldier singing on hollocaust memorial day has nothing but sexual thoughts in his head then he is obviously mentally ill and should be discharged from the army.
18. #5 please look up the definition of "Kiddush HaShem"
LDG ,   Israel   (09.14.11)
I do believe that you have misused it in your comment and this is hurtful to read.
19. Y: Why like this? (Lama Kacha?)
20. No.2 - You are a very sick person with very sick mind!
Jew1 ,   Ashdod   (09.14.11)
Are you compairing watching a movie (you posted before also mentioning blue movie) to woman singing tikva?? This is the reason that you are not fit for any socieity to live in. You and people like you are fanatic and should shift to Afganistan. You are a sick sick person who has not learnt anything from your years and years of tora sudies and left cluless of normal proportions. I hope our government will take a note of these growing taliban in our community and stop of their fundings and force all of them to join the idf. Atleast they will come back to humanity. As far as IDF is concerned, no taking orders back. This is military and not their prayer house. These people have created mess of everythihg they touched. Rabbanuth, Kaddisha, transportation and list goes on. Please do not give them inch as they will ask for whole hand. Do not allow them to mess up IDF.
21. #9 - Gilon
Michael Davison ,   Ra'anana, Israel   (09.14.11)
Who says this wasn't a mandatory attendance event? The article doesn't. No soldier can disobey a mandatory attendance event, no matter what the reason. "Y" and the others cvould have covered their ears and not walked out, then lodged na complaint through proper channels. I notice you didn't answer my question: If "Y" is in command of a border post and the enemy opposite (say, Syria) brings a woman to sing over loudspeakers, will "Y" desert his post in the face of the enemy for his religious reasons? Maybe he'll stop fighting in the middle of a war because it's Shabat? Will you excuse him because he deserted his post for religious reasons? Please don't insult our intelligence. Either "Y" is in the army and will obey all legal orders or he is not in the army. Religious rules don't take precedence over military law for serving soldiers.
22. #4 & 11 So these soldiers need training to be not be affect
Rebecca ,   Modiin   (09.14.11)
Are you saying that this ceremony was training the young soldiers to be less affected by women's voices? Yes ? Well then you'd better make sure the young women strip at them too - Women's bodies would be a more effective weapon than their voices.
23. Singing and sex
Dave ,   canada   (09.14.11)
Will hearing a male sing induce homosexual thoughts?
24. Much ado but its not nothing
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (09.15.11)
The ban on listening to a single women’s voice stems in part from King Solomon’s song “Let me hear your voice, for your voice is sweet and your face is beautiful” some rabbis classify a women’s voice as the same as a nude women all this of course from ancient times when women were not only not heard but also not seen. Ultra orthodoxy is still living in the past. First of all such a dictum has no place in a modern society and least of all in the military. This was part of a mandatory attendance meeting and insubordination cannot be tolerated in any military environment
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