Torah, science go together
Haim Amsalem
Published: 11.10.11, 18:04
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ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (10.11.11)
2. I agree 100%. Great article!
Jake ,   USA   (10.11.11)
3. Rambam (Maimonides)
Mitchell Cohen ,   Gush-Etzion, Israel   (10.11.11)
This is a great article. However, Rambam was already saying Torah and science are NOT contradictory hundreds of years ago.
4. Good article. Correct point of view.
Baruch ,   Boston, USA   (10.11.11)
True science, not scientific speculation as to the origin or future of the universe, goes hand in hand with Torah study, or should. Science is the study, if done in an honest way, of the world that HaShem created for us.
5. Amin
Avram Goldsmith   (10.11.11)
Israel people is a big Cli for dedication and can absorb both. Am Israel Hi
6. The "curriculum" of Golden Age rabbis
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (10.11.11)
Stillman's "The Jews of Arab Lands" includes, among the source texts, a Curriculum of Advanced Jewish and Secular Studies by Joseph b. Judah Ibn Aqnin from the late 12th century. Included among the subjects of study: Reading and Writing; Torah, Mishnah, and Hebrew Grammar; Poetry; Talmud; Philosophic Observations on Religion; Philosophic Studies; Logic; Mathematics, Arithmetic; Optics; Astronomy; Music; Mechanics; Natural Sciences, Medicine; and Metaphysics. This great tradition died with the Inquisition and Expulsion from Spain, as the Jews turned toward mysticism and kabbalah. European Jewish tradition never inclined toward such a comprehensive body of study, though many during the Jewish Enlightenment did pursue university degrees, especially in Germany. Eastern Europe was another matter.
7. I don't think so.
Rich ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.11.11)
1. Our World is 4.54 billion years old says science, but the Rabbis say the creation of the World was 5772 years ago. That can't be right. 2. The Torah says that G-d created everything in the World in 6 days, but it took billions of years for everything to evolve. Whales have been around for 50 million years, cattle 23 million years, grass 150 million years, fish 400 million years, etc. That's not 6 days. 3. In the Torah it says that G-d created light on the first day, but there was no Sun, Moon and Stars until the 4th day. That can't be right. There could have been no light on the first day if there was no Sun, Moon or Stars until the 4th day. Science says that our Universe was created in a Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. And when our Solar System was formed the Sun was created first, 4.57 billion years ago, and the leftovers (gas, dust, etc) of the Solar Nebula, fell into their own orbits and formed plantets, including our planet Earth, about 4.54 billon years ago. This is not what it says in the Torah. In fact the Torah says that there was first darkness upon the Earth and that it was void. Well Science says that the Sun was created first before the Earth, so light was always there. And Science says that the Earth is round and not flat like many people, including Jews, believed in Mesopotamia thousands of years ago. And we won't even talk about what Archaeology has to say about the Torah. No, Science and Torah are not compatible.
8. Two more othodox names he forgot to mention
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (10.11.11)
The first is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Shneerson, who got his engineering degree (from the Sorbonne, as I recall) before taking on his leadership role in Lubavitch. The second and even more obvious name is recent Nobel Prize winner Robert Aumann - who came and spoke earlier this year in the high hills of Judea and was an enthralling speaker - mixing history, science, Torah and Talmud throughout his talk.
9. Talmud Torah COMBINED WITH philosophy&sciences.
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (10.11.11)
10. Leshon Kodesh PLUS Yisraelit (100% PRONUNCIATION CLARITY).
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (10.11.11)
11. ABJADS hinder info&com, socio-economic potential and growth.
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (10.11.11)
12. Why a BLACK kipah?
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (10.11.11)
13. but jews forged Torah
Salma ,   Palestine   (10.11.11)
science can not be falsified.
14. what nonsense !
Michael ,   Haifa   (10.11.11)
Science and Torah studies are totally antithetical. While science advances through the challenge and disproof of existing axioms, the divine text of the Torah can never be challenged for it is grounded in belief rather than in the scepticism demanded by Science
15. One Foot In Torah/One Foot In The World
MY PLANET ISRAEL ,   US-IL   (10.11.11)
The "Middle Way" is the most accurate way to describe Judaism, as the saying goes: "If you stand too close to the fire, you'll get burned. If you stand too far from it you'll freeze. Therefore, stand in the middle and be warmed". The Rabbi used "fire" to describe Torah. Indeed since ancient times only a small minority was allowed only to study Torah full time and as their only focus of study while the vast majority had one foot in "both worlds" and were the ones to sustain the minority that studies. The Torah scholars must have as much respect for their financial supporters as vice-versa. Or, ultimately, the supporters will KNOW that those who spend their time only studying Torah have transgressed Ahavat Yisrael and have fallen into a void of foolishness. This is what we are faced with today: many of the religious do not respect those who support them which is why their reputations ha e faltered. May they change their ways quickly. Chai Yisrael.
16. Science & Religion
Robert Gruner W. ,   Caracas/Venezuela   (10.12.11)
I agree 150% .. science should be taught now in full at all Yeshivas around the world.. RGW.
17. Neighbour # 7 (Rich)
Ginette ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.12.11)
What you don't seem to realize is that the value of one day for G-d is actually a million years for us mere humans At the time of the creation, time is like something abstract.. So yes, it is very possible and it has been proven (I think) that science meets Torah. The year 5772 is when we received the Torah (again I think...I have to brush up on my Talmud studies of long ago)
18. Salma # 13
Ginette ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.12.11)
Where are you from again? Please, put a lid on it.!
19. Complementary "meaning- ways" of questioning and living life
Jerry to #7 and #14 ,   The Netherlands   (10.12.11)
Not antithetical, rather combinatory "narratives". No blind following in either way. Individuality. Authenticity. Openmindedness. However we look at it, the beauty of Judaism still is about mitzvot, about behaviour and has little to do with believing certain things literally or not. The beauty of the jewish mind is still the (almost compulsive) looking at things from all kinds of (practical, philosophical, ironical, funny, etc.) angles at the same time, fully accepting the question mark. You are right if you mean that Judaism can do with some reconnecting to individual, social and "official" QUESTIONING as a way of cognitive-social life, a contemporary (philosophical&scientific) daring renewal of Talmud Torah and jewish life. However, the beauty about the jewish "narrative" remains that AM YISRAEL is still ALIVE and REAL, not a philosophical or scientific abstraction or concept. Talmud Torah and Philosophy&Sciences need each other, as do Am Yisrael and all other people(s) need each other to help bring ONENESS to HUMANKIND. An open mind is not an empty mind and an empty mind at times has it advantages.
20. Good balanced article...To reach depths of Torah you need
Asher ,   NY,USA   (10.12.11)
vast amount of science and one day the humanity will get to that point...... Till then have strong faith in Hashem and keep learning Torah and science but do not listen to atheists what so ever..... Seculars need to learn Torah and Talmidim should be symbols of Truth and Justice.....
21. Correct Science most embedded inTorah:
BUTSeriously ,   Sydney   (10.12.11)
V1. The universe is finite - there was a 'BEGINNING' V2. No science existed at one time: all was a void & unformed. Thus no stars appeared before laws at beginning of universe. V3. Science came when laws were created and these laws seperated everything. E.g. 'law of gravity' came after law based 'seperations' appeared. V4. 'Let there be light' represents first seperated product from unformed void due to action of laws. There is no such thing as 'NATURE'. V5. Billions of years passed before life emerged with other anticipating seperation actions [e.g. 'Seperation of water from land', etc.]. Earth is NOT 6000 years old - Genesis is first pointer of universe's age! V11-30.. Evolution comes from Genesis with the first listing of life form groupings in their correct order. There is no 'Natural Selection' - there is only a program directive 'chip' passed on via the seed. V27. That life was initiated in a male/female duality then seperated to male & female. How else? Which part is not science? Correct science comes from Torah, and correct education confirms this.
22. Yeah, like OJ Simpson's lawyer proved OJ didn't do it
Edward ,   Sydney, Australia   (10.12.11)
It takes intelligence and skill to craft an argument that a scientifically incorrect text and science are complimentary. This is because of the distorted mental gymnastics required to bend the mind to justify the religious text's very existence. In doing so, one learns the skills of investigation, argument, attacking truth's weak points, hiding one's own blatant errors etc. BTW Muslims have perfected the 'scientific miracle' aspect of religion. They're clearly not miracles, but as the quran's a book of vague poetry it's easier to distort. Many westerners too lazy to study scientifists' reply (there's not many, as western scientists have better things to do) have converted to Islam as a result.
23. To Salma, 13: If Jews forged Torah...
Vered, Israel   (10.12.11)
you're in even bigger trouble since Muslims rewrote our stories. Abraham became Ibrahim - is that a forgery of a forgery? And who does your tradition say Yishmael was? A guy out of the clear blue, or "Ibrahim's" son? The clearly older test states that Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, yet Muslims changed it to Ibrahim almost sacrificing Yishmael. So far, not too impressive.
24. #13 Salma, really?
Phil ,   Ireland   (10.12.11)
Can you show where the Jews have forged Torah? You can't make a comment like that without proof. As for science, it's always right until someone proves it wrong!
25. @Rich
Sam ,   ME   (10.12.11)
Facts, facts, facts!!! This is what secular people boast about all the time. Personally I don't like facts they tend to cloud my judgments :-)
26. The problem was never STUDY of the Torah. The problem was...
John ,   Europe   (10.12.11)
The fact that in clash of science in Torah, you have people interfere who will want to destroy science just to preserve old INTERPRETATIONS of Torah. Let me give you specific example: in Talmud, in one place, Rabbi Meir (as far as I remember) says that the "world is like a porch, it has roof and walls". One look on the globe refutes that. So, basically, the whole segment of Talmud is refuted with it. And what now? How do you continue to take Talmud as a credible science book when you have this huge mistake? This was just one example. Let's not get into the DAYS of creation and the SEQUENCE of the elements of creations (before the creation of Earth there was no old Earth, there was no waters and there was no spirit over the waters). And this is what Aharoni, basically, claimed.
27. To the snake from Garden of Eden
Avram Goldsmith ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.12.11)
Israel excistence span for 4000 years and all is for keeping the Thora despite all progroms and extermination by Moslems, Persions, Inquisition, Casacks, Nazis and Islamofascists. Israel and Thora is an indistructable connection.
28. Response to #14
Avram Goldsmith ,   Toronto, Canada   (10.12.11)
If you are not proefficent in Tora, please don't use such srtingent language. I don't now what's you scientific background , however all the new descovery in field of microbiology , and new cellular discovers, denial of therory of evolution, relative theory of Einstein, new atomic theory CONFORM THORA PRINCIPLE AND BRIAH. I high recomand you to study THORA IN DEPTH and youl find response to many questions with interaction between events and the impact on humanity ( this is botom line) and will give you the tools to think in abstract way.
29. Torah prescribes responsible stewardship of our environment.
Ypip ,   Canada   (10.13.11)
Today we have demonstrated that such an approach is the only one possible for sustainable life on the planet.
30. Chabod Rabbi was an engineer
Steve ,   Ketchikan Alaska   (10.12.11)
Don't forget that Rabbi M.M. Schneerson, The Lubavitcher Rebbe was an engineer, having studied in the University of Berlin and then at the Sorbonne in Paris.
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