2 points. 1. The issue is that the Left prefers to scream about the Haredim not being in the army. They would rather yell and scream than actually induct Haredim. So there is no real interest in making life for a Haredi in the army tolerable. 2. As a Haredi in the army who serves in a unit that helps identify killed soldiers, I can tell you that we are more than just Kashrus supervisors. We do a task that almost all non-religious people (based on the many to whom I have spoken) would not be able to handle.

Things change. The IDF was very secular based. It no longer is and can no longer afford to be. Get over it and adapt. Just like you expect the Haradim to serve the IDF has to make that possible. It's called compromise. And people like you have to do it as much as you expect others to.

The summary of the haradi situation is good, and the note that there are differences between Hardi and Dati Leumi is made too. But with thought and compromise on all sides, we can and should have a united army.

As it stands now, the Hareidim want the IDF's protection. They want other people to actually do the dirty work of disrupted lives, late, hard hours, and blood spilled, and when we have success, to claim they invited the success through their payers. But God hears all of our prayers, not just theirs. So, I say, no IDF service, no IDF protection.

Why only secularshave to defent the country, don't you have any duty to your country and it's people? What someone has to demand that out of you? Why the sense of responsibility did not come 60+ years before. And yes, seculars have every right to be unhappy as it is not only secular's duty to protect both seculars & haredim, but it is duty of both the sectors to protect our country. Our country is only 60+ years old and have so many different people coming from Russia, Europe, India, Ethiopia, Nepal and so on. They all have different back ground and different cultures. They all jointed or participated idf without any conditions and kept their differences out of it. It is only haredim who have conditions to join idf, they are given bribes/special conditions (free education and so on) to join idf. And after giving so much, and extorting so much in back, they do not want to join but concur the idf with their ideology? They do not want to participate but change the face of idf. This is the difference and that's why you hear complaints from both he ends. The problem lies with haredi attitude and not seculars

A lot of people seem to approve of your comment and I am positively stumped - it's unlikely that most readers (or you, poster) are small-minded hypocrites but how else to explain your use of the Torah only when it works in your favor. The Torah army was men only. The Torah army instructed anyone who was afraid (that he was not perfectly righteous and thus might not survive in battle - according to the commentaries) to go home and not to go out to war. The Torah army was lead by the religious leaders of the nation - priests, head of the Sanhedrin etc. King David, great warrior that he was, wrote 150 chapters of Psalms describing his dedication to G-d's laws and spent his life in repentance for having slept with a woman TO WHOM HE WAS MARRIED BUT SHOULD NOT HAVE MARRIED WHEN HE DID!! Doesn't sound like Tzahal. I'm skeptical that King David would join if he would be forced to listen to women sing, etc. Please explain how it is that you only refer to the part of the Torah that coincides with your life philosophy. (Would love to hear from all of you who "liked" talkback #16, as well).

Israel needs BOTH. If the Haredi could observe Halaha while serving,they wouldn t have any excuse not to join the army [as in the Tora it is clearly written,that everybody with some very defined exceptions has to serve] Instead to be so negative,let us try to find solutions to be ONE loving people.

be defended. Ariel is not saying that secular do not deserve to be defended. He is just worried,like a father whose little son is a attacked by a colosse,and lacks selfconfidence.

The torah army, was not led by TORAH sges (Yoav, Iftach, etc.) and everybody was in principle obligated to serve. The exclusions were on a batlle to batlle basis. As so common with all haredim you rech your conclussions before you analize the problem

My son-in-law, who is a charedi-chabadnik, served in the IDF in Nachal (not Nachal-charedi) and every year he goes to the reserve service. He says that the conditions for the religious soldiers are improving: food more kasher, prayer requirements are better respected, etc. He wants to send to the army his sons who study now in a cheder. That's the general tendency. And this is what troubles the secular public: that more and more religious Jews will join the army and the workforce (not the dodging), that Torah laws and traditions would be more observed in the Israeli society, that the Jewish state will become really Jewish.

Your argument is flawed. Does the IDF not save an innocent wounded Arab who didn't serve. Does the army not save someone who made aliyah later in life and did not serve? Would the army not save a Jewish or non-Jewish tourist? It is a cruel society (and not a Jewish one) you are suggesting if a military force will exclusively defend only those who are within its ranks. The character trait of Sodom, the sages would say.

I don't forget Thora, I just don't want to base by whole life upon a book which starts with two naked people, and a talking snake in a garden, and goes downhill after that...... I also don't share your preposterous opinion that the is no point whatsoever in defending the country if it's without this book. Our purpose here in life is to be seen as holy by the nations? We are not. Wake up buddy, were just the same as anybody else.

#36 Aviva The Torah army used ancient weapons not electronics, machine guns, missiles. Is the use of modern weapons permissible or must Israel return to the use of ancient weapons ? If modern weapons...the women are required to operate some of them ! It is well known that Israeli women soldiers operate certain types of equipment in a superior fashion. Female soldiers simply have superior mental concentration on tedious, difficult tasks that male soldiers mess-up...women soldiers produce better results ! It is the height of hutzpa to project King David a thousand years forward and then to surmise how he would act: "King David would join if he would be forced to listen to women sing, etc" How do you know ? Perhaps King David would NOT feel forced to listen! moshe, Israel

Mandating a draft for the entire population while excluding large portions of it based on ethnicity or religion is wrong, If Israel cannot create a system where Arabs and Haradim who do not want to serve in the army can do some form of national service then it is time for volunteer army in Israel.

Please enlighten all of us where in the torah it says that you cannot listen to women singing ? Or where in the torah it says that you should sit and study torah all day long and not serve in protecting the people ? What you have is not torah but pure middle ages eastern European Judaism.

camp for 5 years without vacations, holidays or parole. Male,female, Jewish, non Jewish,religious, non religious or draft dodging women that marry early to avoid service. Let them take their infants, if any to serve with them. Afterwards let them work, but give 50% of their salaries to the I.D.F. Those that are older can also pay 50% of their salaries or pensions. If they do not like, then they can leave!

Assume the majority of Israelis become religious and therefore exempt from service. Who stands between them and the Arab hordes when IDF is a haredi yeshiva instead of the world's greatest fighting force?

Either you are part of Israel and participate or you don't. Haredim cannot force their beliefs on everyone and then not participate in Israel's protection. Praying can only prevent missiles striking targets in one's mind.

I visit various theater and live entertainment performances quite often. At least once, occasiosnally more, each week. That includes Jazz Clubs where those ladies who believe that they are Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Vaughn, or Peggy Lee, reborn, try their hand, or more properly, their voices. Some are magnificient, and I love to see and hear them, to applaud and cheer them. They warm my cold nights with fine and talented performances. Others are mediocre, and gain my polite attention and mile applause. Then the majority, who are someone's daughters, or sisters, or girlfriends or wives, are somewht less gifted and apply the "fingernails on the chalkboard" school of singing. However, under NO circumstance would I, a mostly secular type, put up with anyone mandating that I sit and listen to a really poor performance, or in fact, ANY performance. Entertainment is a totally optional enterprise, or in a rational world, should be. Mandatory atendance at a musical performance? What kind of idiotic autocratic, bureaucratic crap is that, and what possible positive purpose could it serve?

Ezra at post 8 has got a point. Militarily: What's more frightening to an opposing force: A - A secular force that serves because it's what's necessary to defend their homes where they live, OR B - A secular force as above plus the religious "berzerkers" brigades who do what they must to protect the land that God himself promised them and their ancestors and their descendants? And if you don't believe the stuff about God promising something or other, then why even bother fighting for Israel? Then it's pretty much the same as any other 1st world country, except for the location. While you're figuring out the complexities you could make a temporary solution by starting a religious corps or something like a military yeshiva for those who won't sacrifice their piety.

Let them protect the country in other ways too.

If they can't pull their weight and help defend the country, as least they could do national service. They can't continue to do nothing and receive government assistance based on working peoples taxes.

If you dont aknowledge that their is an international united nations enforced billionaire run left than your basiclly just A liar. The policy in britain is that if your daughter gets raped by muslims, then the police arrest you so that you wont disturb community relations. That will be difficult for haredi and secular Israelis to accept when its implemented in Israel. In america gay men dressed as women wearing string bikinis go to elementary schools and spread there legs for all the seven year olds, more difficult issues for Israeli men to accept, but you can be sure the secret Israeli forces will arrest anyone who gets outraged. And dont forget to vote! In Hashem I trust.

I am not in the least bit charedi, but I understand the distress that they would suffer in the army. Everything about them, from the way they dress to how many times they pray, would be mocked at by the secular majority in the army. Would you like to have to renounce your customs in order to fit into an alien culture?