Sane haredim, speak up
Yair Lapid
Published: 19.12.11, 15:00
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1. About Time
Moshe ,   Jerusalem   (12.19.11)
Yair, its about time you publicly recognize and admit that the majority of us charedim are sane and not extremists. Perhaps others will see that the images of charedi riots and segregation are not really representative of the larger charedi community as a whole and that many of us are hard working and law abiding citizens.
2. don't hold your breath
nadav ,   tlv   (12.19.11)
waiting for the Haredim to speak out against the fanatics on their side is like waiting for the illusory "moderate" muslims to speak out against the Islamofascist terrorists among them. THey will NEVER side with those whom they see as inferior and heretical. The only solution is for the State to dismantle their educational infrastructure, draft them into the military men and women both, and send their children to co-ed educational facilities. It is drastic, but there is no other way to face the increasing Taliban-like fanaticism that we are facing! Stop it before it is too late!!
3. the disgraced Jews -- the haredim
yosi   (12.19.11)
Empty words are filling these comments. When our inept govt, the police, the judges decide that enough is enough, it will stop. they don't know who they are?. Maybe we should use the same approach that the french underground used on collaborators --- shave off their heads, beard, sidelocks so that the community will know who they are.
4. My greatest fear
Babishka ,   USA/Mea Shearim   (12.19.11)
A Breivik event fueled by these articles and talkbacks. Haredim don't have access to weapons but other Israelis do.
5. "sane"
Sagi   (12.19.11)
anyone who believes in idols, physical or metaphysical, cannot be described as "sane".
6. haredim will not change volutnarily
Helena ,   Stockholm, Sweden   (12.19.11)
Totally agree! Haredim have to be stripped off all the allowances, they have to be forced to work, pay taxes, they have to be conscripted - both men and women. All financial support to their educational system (which as we all know is worthless) has to be stopped. We do not have to shave their beards and sidelocks, they might do that themselves together with the fashion makeover when they discover there are more comfortable clothes for people who work and earn their money.
7. What happened to the earlier talk backs here?
rebecca ,   Modiin   (12.19.11)
8. 'sane' haredim
moron ,   galut   (12.19.11)
i am not observant at all but take personal offense at the endless disparagement and derision of torah jews by israeli press--stop bashing them long enough and give the jews a chance to unify!
9. #3: wrong!
tom ,   toronto, canada   (12.19.11)
why would it be appropriate to publicly shame the radical hareidim? is there not a law against vandalism and assault? and does this law not apply to hareidim as well? i think it's time to stop seeing these illegal acts as a "hareidi problem", and start seeing them as a law enforcement problem. being in jail would cause these criminals considerable hardship, as there would be no women there to abuse.
10. Sane Haredim
Ed Codish ,   Pardessiya, Israel   (12.19.11)
I agree that society would benefit from sane Haredim speaking forcefully against extremists attached to their community, but do not understand why this is more their task than it is everyone else's. Violence and intimidation should be handled by courts and the police. True, people blame the entire Haredi community for the criminality of similarly dressed people, but they should not. A factor in sane Haredi silence might be family connections with the criminals, so that it might be easier for the police and the justice system to act. Ed Codish
11. Group size
Rika N ,   Toronto   (12.19.11)
It's no secret that over the decades USA usually takes a more hardline approach to world problems than Canada does; simply because they can. The same could be said of Britain compared to Ireland; Germany to Holland; Russia to Bulgaria. Just so with the Haredim, the larger the group gets the more they flex their muscles.
12. Then and now
Arnold ,   Canada   (12.19.11)
Society must follow rules in order to survive. The Talmud sets forward a wonderful set of rules and by and large these rules work today as well as when they were first written. But some rules need to be looked at again as we are in a very modern world.
13. Ugly article
Arik A ,   Hadera Israel   (12.19.11)
full of hatred and intolerance. So only the secular empty and materialistic hedonist way of life is APPROVED by the press... I understand that according to the Israeli press to be a Torah Jew is VERBOTTEN, like it was forbidden in Germany in 1940 to be a Jew. Tell me journalists, what is your right to live in Israel if you hate Judaism? and what is the brainwashing against the haredim? Is it to educate the Israelis to hate them? Who is putting bombs, who are shooting rockets at Sderot, who murdered Fogel family? the Haredim?So enough is enough, we have real ennemis, there is no need to invent a fake one.The Haredim are good Jews.
14. Maale Amos
Anonymous ,   Betar Ilit   (12.19.11)
Was once the fastest growing yishuv in Yesha until it was taken over by rabbinic harrassment and threats of death to homeowners. Anyone sane has moved out and are holding their homes while living like refugees now going on for years. This story is much bigger than the bus story or even Emanuel. No building in 16 years even though their is a terrific demand in the Charedi sector. It seems like Notorei Carta has taken over the place. I wish someone would report on this. And not sweep it under the carpet.
15. Haredi Moderation
Avraham ,   USA   (12.19.11)
Mr. Lapid's comments themselves suggest the solution that well-meaning people on all sides can embrace. In point of fact, a large percentage of Western Haredim are gainfully employed, have secular or professional credentials, and espouse a "Live and Let Live" attitude -- as do the majority in Israel's Haredi sector. The main problem are the intolerant fanatics on both sides -- evidenced by both the religiously coercive zealots, and the hysterically vulgar haredi haters in many of these Talkbacks. Both of them display a poverty of emotional intelligence and inveigh extremist beliefs and pratices: harassing women on a bus is NO DIFFERENT in its mean-spiritedness than attempting to shave off beards and peyos, closing religious schools etc. It's time for the rest of us who inhabit the field between the 20 yard lines (the more Torah observant and the somewhat less Torah committed) to band together, work out solutions, and let the haters on both sides pommel each other while the rest of us enjoy one another's friendship. And just for the record, I am a hassidic Jew, an Air Force officer, and graduate of an elite American university. And I'm as disgusted by the radical religious as I am by the fanatical anti-religious. And I'd bet that most Jews, regardless of their religious "orthdoxy" are with me on that.
16. I'm Chareidi and I am against fanatics
Louis ,   Modiin   (12.19.11)
I live in Beit shemesh and we have many problems with the extremists. i am a Chassidic jew and I sent my wife to a big meeting they had for unity against the extremists in a local school. I can personally guarantee that any "Charedi" jew that dares to lift a finger against a woman or bus driver etc in my vicinity (and isn't immediately arrested) will wish he had been when Im finished with him. LIke in the secular jewish world a vocal minority of left wing maniacs make all sorts of problems for the whole country; similaryly by us there are a few violent lunatics who give our beautiful community a bad name.
17. Ashamed
Joseph ,   Brooklyn NY   (12.19.11)
As a member of the Hasidic community I am appalled and ashamed of the latest actions of zealots who call them self's charedim, they're turning Israel into a Iran, this is not what we are thought in school, this is not what Chasidus is all about, if you have a problem going on a bus with women, don't go on to that bus, if you have a problem with a book store that sells stuff that you dislike, don't go there, lock yourself up in your apartment, and shut up, to do these kind of violent acts, and sick Taliban style behavior is nothing close to hasidic behavior, and they should be punished by the Israeli government like any criminal, no, the secular or haredi women don't have to sit in the back or dress to their perfection, they can move to Tehran if they don't like it, this is democracy its 2011 wake up, its a very small percentage, but as usual they are the noise makers, and they get the attention, shame on them, oh and also had they not behaved like this more secular Jews and gentiles would look up to Hasidim and respect their way of life, we are now pushing them away and making every day new enemies, disgusting and ugly...
18. THANK YOU #16 and #17
roxanne ,   haifa/san francisco   (12.19.11)
refreshing to hear from you!
19. A modestly dressed woman STANDS her ground. She leads by
Bunnie Meyer ,   Los Angeles, CA USA   (12.19.11)
example and puts the extremist bully in his place. It is sad that we need to call upon women to teach Torah to the fringe elements of the religious community but it seems that is what Hashem requires. Let the men in the charadi community CHOOSE to sit in the back of the bus, they have legs to walk that far. Let the charadi operate their OWN busses with properly marked signage and let their rules apply there. I think the charadi are wonderful people but the radical fringe elements can't define the group and marginalize them.
20. #13 and everybody!
sharon ,   petach tikva, Israel   (12.19.11)
jews against jews is even sadder than arabs against jews...... and segregation is for synagogue not for public outdoor places. I believe in G-d but i am not haredi and i have no problem with them i have a problem with extreme fanatics in any religon or political way! Just live your life and let others live theirs. Only G-d can judge you!
21. And while we're at it: Sane Leftists - please stand up!
Brian Cohen ,   Judean Peoples Front   (12.19.11)
It's time for a left wing leader to stand up and say out loud: The "Peace Camp" is dead. We demand that the Palestinians immediately return to the peace table without preconditions and negotiate peace. Settlements are one of the negotiating points like everything else. However, it ain't gonna happen. Meretz will keep blaming the Israeli electorate for being the fools that we are for not voting for them. S'ok. We'll keep being "fools" and Meretz will probably disappear from the next Knesset. Labor leader Ichimovitch has been smart so far and hasn't mentioned it. Let's hope she stays smart and offers the voters a leftist alternative to Bibi, which simply has not been there at all.
22. Sane Charedi is speaking:
Vladimir ,   Yerushalayim   (12.19.11)
Lapid, please leave us alone! You won't be able to make a political career on bashing us, on fanning baseless hatred among the ignorant masses.
23. when sane chilonis speak up and not crazies like
shadoil ,   Jerusalem   (12.19.11)
Rosenblit, then you will find someone to talk to but as long as the likes of this women who on purpose is provacative whenever the chance arises you will find no one charedi willing to speak up.
24. why do we have to speak up
sane haredie ,   jerusalem israel   (12.20.11)
Every time that a murder or a different crime happens are all the secular put on the the criminal chair and expected to defend themselves? Who is Mr. Lapid to demand such a thing. He himself writes that the vast majority of us denounce such behavior so why are we expected to dance to his tune? All the trash that was said about the soldiers that didn't want to hear the women singing, what's all the noise about? Did they force others to leave? Did they blow up the presentation? They got up and left in order not to be forced to go against a Halachic ruling that they abide by. How could it be demanded from them to sit through something that is against their morals? It's nice to throw the words "democracy democracy" and then dictate to others how they have to act!!
Jerry ,   The Netherlands   (12.20.11)
26. Clueless
Gila ,   USA   (12.20.11)
The author is so uneducated about Torah observant Judaism it's nauseating. He'd do well to run his ideas by some head-screwed-on-straight Hareidim in Israel before splattering his views on the Internet. (He could start with Rabbi Lazer Brody, or Rabbi Zamir Cohen, or Rebbetzin Yemima Mizrachi, or Chana Jenny Weisberg...)
27. they cannot if they want their kids married
alan ash ,   nyc ny   (12.20.11)
it will be a tremendous challenge to go against and stand up for what is right when the adversary believes you can lie , cheat and steal for their brand of warped torah. .the raybayim do not have enough faith in their flock to let them think ny themselves. they are spooked and fooled into askuing them for answers on their whole life and even how to think.
28. I'm tired of all these anti chareidi slurs on ynet
Sue ,   Jerusalem   (12.20.11)
A small noisy group has ruined our image even internationally but the vast vast majority of chareidim are totally balanced while not giving in on Halacha to the demands of the seculars. We live by Halacha for thousands of years and there is no compromise on our observance just as the ancestors of all these seculars did observe and we will continue to live by Halacha. BUT there are some radical elements that go way overboard and ruin it for everyone else. Of course we cannot stop a woman from singing , but Haredi men should not be required and forced to hear it. Of course it is problematic to force someone to sit in a specific place in a bus, but there is such a thing as respect for the community you are visiting and not go against their customs- so how about a little respect from those seculars who travel in exclusively Chareidi areas. We as religious women are happy to sit apart from the men and don't even want to sit among religious men. This is our way and maybe it should be respected. We want if this way and it is not prejudice. It is a total misunderstanding by the seculars because of lack of familiarity with our way of life. By the way I am a Chareidi lawyer, and totally open minded and have no need to push a stupid cause that makes no sense. We chareidim love our way of life. When you seculars visit our communities, try looking at it as respect for our traditions instead of trampling on your rights. Still I would not insult a visitor to our community by making her change her seat on a public bus but I would hope she has the decency to respect us. in my opinion the seculars are just bored and forcing the issue which make people more stubborn. There are always people on both sides who are extremists who declare for others what they want by making a lot of noise and disruption. I think overwhelmingly the chareidim prefer separate seating in their communities but cannot make it a law unless it is a private bus. In the end of the day it's about respect. Respect respect respect..
29. radicals are the minority
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (12.20.11)
It is a shame that the focus is on the very small but highly vocal minority that seems to capture headlines in newspapers looking for inciting stories. I am a charadi and have lived in the Jerusalem community for over 33 years. The loonies that make the news are such a small minority that the reality is that they are insignificant if it were not for the fact that both they and the news media seeks them out for their attention. It would be better to ignore them and they would be forced to go to work instead of using the attention that they are getting to raise money so that they can continue their stupidity.
30. Vladimir , it are the charidim who bring in hatred
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (12.20.11)
by their actions . Beth Shemesh , Betar Illit , Emmanuel , buses , book and other stores , separate sidewalks , and so on . Those charidim want to impose their lifestyle [ if you can call this life ] on EVERYONE . They did'nt contribute ANYTHING , our almost nothing , to the creation of the state , did'nt fight much in Israel's wars . Is reporting facts bashing ? Facts can't be denied .
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