Take the money you've saved from government allowances and create your own bus companies. no one will use them but yourselves. Think "Monsey Tours."

The article was well written. I do, however, find it ironic, that the advertisement for the article, which can be viewed by both men and women, has a lady wearing nothing but a bathing suit top and is standing in a way to show off her body.But at least the product she is endorsing is Kosher Certified!

Actually, Madeleine (and others) even a private Haredi operated bus line should not be allowed to segregate passengers by sex. It would be a public conveyance licensed by the state and operating on public roads. Just as a restaurant or hotel is not permitted to ban customers because of sex, race, etc., neither should a bus line be permitted to do so. I grant that hitchhikers may be discriminated at the wish of the owner-driver. Ed Codish

What right to seculars have to impose their ways on haredi have to impose their ways on haredi, its a two way street and both have their own ways of doing things. If we are talking about segregation on all busses no but a limited number of local busses that travel through haredi neighborhoods should be allowed segregation. The haredi women want it just as much as the men because they live the same lifestyle and don't want to sit next to a man she is not married to anymore than he wants to sit next to her. Prehaps if seculars could be more understanding and accepting of haredi lifestyle they wouldn't be so inverted and would mingle in society more.

Why does it cost only 20 sh for the line 426 Petach Tikva Jerusalem , while the 947 to Jerusalen cost's 24,6 ? And the 947 stops at the CBS , while the 426 goes into town ? Or the 400 line Bne berak who also costs 20 Sh to Jerusalen ? Or the Elad-Bne Berak [ 22 km ] that is cheaper as the Petach Tikva- Tel Aviv [ 14 km ]. And the 79 or 279 are often almost empty .

probably hate Ynet more and what it represents than the author. Take care!

apart from the men, and this hiloni also prefers to sit apart from the heradi males. I travelled in such comfort on El Al when haredi needed my space to pray, I had two seat to myself and told them if I change thats it until NEW YORK! has its perks! lol

someone of the opposite gender. Find a seat with someone of the same gender, if that is your preference. The "back of the bus" section is unnecessary - there could be an all female bench in the front or the middle that should not offend anybody.

Aryeh - Your article has merit. But here is the question - Is separate seating on the bus a stringency or Jewish law. You know full well...it is a stringency. I think the problem is that the ultra - orthodox population have confused law with stringency. I implore you to take a look at your writing. Jewish Law does not demand separation of the sexes on a bus, or at a wedding or at a concert. These are stringencies to protect the male from the Yetzer Hara. Well it is high time you fought the Yetzer Hara and not punish everyone else with "Chumra" and fences. Ellis from Bet Shemesh

I don't know if there is satisfactory for all solution to the problem of seatign arrangments on the buses, but may I suggest that for a start the mean shoudl go to the back of the buses , not the women, !! more respect for the women is needed !!, they are in any case the breadwinners in the haredi homes... so haredi men, show respect to the ones providing for their families and not to the people living off the hard working haredi women.. HAREDIM MEN MOVE TO THE BACK OF THE BUS NOW!!!!!

i agree to all you say, except that the haredim need to support ( i.e. pay !!!!) their own buses, hospitals,schools, electric companies , yeshivot...., and stop milking the rest of the people in Israel !!!!!. and I also suggest they create their own country with their own army to defend them , The country will be called HAREDISTAN !!!!

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. Do not try to justificate de injustificable , like segregation of womens

These are not Haredi Buses, these are buses that are PUBLIC transport for the general PUBLIC of Israel whether Religious irreligious, Jewish Muslim Christian Samaritan Druze Gay Straight whatever these are buses are the Israel public transport. There is no place for this type of sectarian nonsense. If these people want to live like this this is fine but they need their own PRIVATE buses where like minded people can do what they want

Ashdod-Jerusalem is NOT a local bus . Nor is Bne berak-Elad , to name only two .

private buses marked very clearly that also put a notice at the front saying in Hebrew and English (let's face it, there's a lot of tourists) that they are segregated? If you do it with public buses then, as many people are saying, you have 10% of the population imposing their will on everyone,

You are so right abut the " Yetzer Hara " . But the the haredi never will admit, that the whole segregation concept is because they can't control their manly urge. The next move of theirs will be to hang a curtain in the middle of the buses? After all they can turn back and look at the women from the front seats. Regrettable , as far I know there are no Women bus-drivers in Israel, I would put some of them on the public buses in Jerusalem.

A gentleman stands while a lady sits. Not to follow this rule shows that the man's mother must be the busiest prostitute in the land. A good question to ask these "men" is whether their mothers charge by the hour or the act.

She's pregnant, elderly, disabled, or carrying a small child. I have arthritis and very bad feet, and frankly a teenaged girl should give me *her* seat, but they never do. Women aren't raised to think that way. Which reminds me of an old New yorker cartoon: A man is sitting on a bus, but hasn't given his seat to a woman standing before him. The caption reads, "No, chivalry isn't dead ma'am, but I am."

... Do they have seperate facilities, showers, sleeping areas etc. for men and women? Are these a matter of "law," that is, a religious duty enforced by authorities? Conversely, should certain sectors not feel religious oppression at the suggestion that they should be forced to coincide in gender-desegregated quarters, have ads with a woman in a bikini mandatorily placed in their neighborhood or even be coerced by the religious leaders in power to have pictures of women at all posted in ads? And finally, would the reader's answer change if the sector in question were the muslim/arab sector?

Would hop up if I saw small children needed a spot as well. Sure as Hell did not give a seat to any teenager.

I've been riding on NYC subways since I was in high school and I would have no problem giving my seat to an elderly or disabled person, a pregnant woman...or even a guy with arthritis and very bad feet. So I'm not sure it's quite fair to say that women aren't raised to think that way. In fact, there are times when I've gotten up to give my seat to someone who obviously needed it more than I did while the young men sitting nearby didn't even budge.

Orly, if hearing a woman sing is "erva", like seeing her pubic hair, then sitting next to a woman on a bus is like showering with her. But it's not, except on some parallel Haredi universe.

I remember in Holland the times that Catholics could not marry Protestants, that is how it was, my mother's generation. Ok, so these institutions are there as a fact. My question is: if the woman like to be separated because of the (praisable) Haredim men self-knowledge that they know they will not be able to control their dirty hands and minds if a woman comes sit next to them, why not at least be a real GENTLEman and make the rule: the pure and innocent morally superior women sit in the front, and the men who apparently know they will not be able to control their dicks, go sit in the back. Why not turn it around? Why do the women always have to suffer from the men's deficiencies? Be courteous! Let them at least enjoy the front!

Orly said some very smart things. Please answer her without digressing. For the record, I am onl your side. I think that there should be shared men-women sleeping quarters and showers for IDF reservists.

Live and let live, that is fine. One question: so, you must agree that cannibalism, eating of human beings and hearts, in Papua New Guinea or elsewhere is completely okay, no one has the right to judge that. Since, that is their life-style for centuries now, that is what they believe in. Satanists, that kill all kinds of animals, as offer to their deity: live and let live, that is their believe, don't touch it? Tribes that practice female genital mutilation? Okay, since that is their believe? Christians or Muslims that believe people of other beliefs should be annihilated, because that is what God says you should do to heathens: okay? You should be tolerant of that, because that is their believe? Or: live and let live, but with human dignity, justice and equality as the bottom line that should not be crossed?

The idea of opening an individual haredi bus service is fine. Live and let live. But it feels all wrong when Egged buses facilitate separating men and women. A public service of Eretz Yisrael must be above the parties. If people feel comfortable in segregated buses they can have them in special companies - it creates jobs too and perhaps won't take jobs away from Egged.

The halacha is not that !the voice of a woman is an erva" but rather that "the voice of a woman who is [prohibited from sexual relations at the level of] an erva is forbidden ("kol isha erva asur" not "kol isha erva"), that's just a misquote that you've decided to be party to. And like all laws of modesty, the encumbancy is upon the individual not to expose him/herself not upon the community that the individual not be exposed. Of course one obviously has a restriction from attending a location or event knowing in advance that it will feature such exposure. Still, we haven't begun to start speculation regarding hearing the voice vis-a-vis listening to it, not issues regarding a musical instrument that can produce a sound similar to that of a woman, like a phonograph etc. (a woman who is an erva no less) or how that would differ from a man singing in such a voice - or even whether a speaker is considered music at all (as most decisors rule that a drum is not a musical instrument, while a speaker is an electrically stimulated drum)... But I wrote nothing in that regard whatsoever. I responded to forced segregation of men and women, by law, as a religious duty enforced by authorities, no matter how more comfortable it makes men or women feel. Your response indicated a placency with religious coercion regarding any Judean laws of modesty that you deem rationally existing in "halacha." In such a world you are already living in the halachastan that the author himself deems an unacceptable measure. Why shower seperately unless the law recognized man's inherent inability to control his urges, or woman's inherent weakness and inability to maintain her psychological dignity when equality of the genders is implemented as a legal standard? How can anyone living in a democracy condone any form of "law," that is, a religioius duty enforced by authorities that stands in the way of this equality. And of course, would even one person object if this descriminatory segregation were implemented by the authorities to prevent offending the sensibilities not of ultra-orthodox jews but of the arab/muslim sector?

Why Devide Hashem's People ? Where is the Re-Unification on earth as it is in heaven? Do not some remember the Shemar : .".. .Adonai Elohenu , Adonai EHUD" ! Not devided into two ...

Thank you for relating to my post. Separate showers and bedrooms for men and women still has the sanction of the overwhelming majority of the population, and it is a separation that truly is "separate but equal." (Men and women are, of course, legally permitted to sleep and showere together.) Women's segregation on buses does not have this public support, is an affront to equality, and is illegal. As to the halachic argument: I am an observant Jew and take halacha seriously. But halacha is irrelevant in a discussion of civil law and in any case, in my and many other's opinion, in no way ddoes halacha mandate sexual segregation in the public sphere.

This article was lucid, balanced, and respectful -- unlike the assinine comment "this writer should move to Tehran." What right does an outsider have to come into a community and impose his values and standards against the wishes of the majority of the inhabitants. For the anti-haredim to seek to force Orthodox Jews to forego their religious sensibilities is IDENTICAL in its arrogance and chutzpah to the "delusional functionary [who] demands to expand this [genger-segregated seating] arrangement to bus routes used by the general public." It is the same insensitive, callous brazenness. To those who object to a haredi population adhering to its own standards within the confines of their own communities, and say "Get out of here, and move to Iran," I would counter only somewhat facetiously: perhaps Yngue-in-cheek: perhaps you can