Maybe a dozen years ago, I heard Ahron Barak say that the day will come in Israel when the Supreme Court, through its progressive and "activist" nature, will be the last defender of the Hareidim. Many people thought he was crazy at the time but it only makes sense. After all, only a progressive thinker and doer can come to the defense of the minority held in contempt of the general populace, which is what happened here with the hareidim.

finally a nice normal article in YNET...if everyone lives and lets lives the world wouldbe be a better place

mr levy, you feel the need to point out that certain societal norms are NOT negotiable, such as the abuse of children. but is literacy negotiable? like the taliban, some haredim actually believe that the education of women is not desirable. would you agree that haredi girls should receive little or no education? and not even jewish education? and under the same heading, is it negotiable that the children of haredim should be forbidden to drive, or to learn a trade? the standard curriculum, with its imperfections, tries to prepare children to function in society. by giving that away, you deny those children the choice of how they live their lives. one is not "born to be a haredi" - it is not a hereditary disease. but you would propose to eliminate all other options for their children, in the interests of what you call "modesty". i'm not buying it.

Thanks for this great reminder to all liberals, seculars (that I am part of) that cease to be so when they face an opinion different from the mainstream...

Haredim are people, and Jews too. In light of that fact Haredim should assume the social RESPONSIBILITY , like the all other societal sectors in Israel. What's that ...that mumble? that this group or that group cheat on taxes, are involved in crime, don't serve in the IDF, avoid contributing to the Jewish or Christian or Moslem society ? The answer to that ...mumbled excuse is OBVIOUS. moshe

Let them do want they want; just don't take any money from the seculars!

that the world still exists .

As far as women sitting in the back of the bus, you have a point...as long as it is a Haredi only bus and the municipality provides buses for others on the same routes. As far as separate sidewalks, no, as that has never been the case before and even the haredi state that the instigators of this are ‘sicarii’ (the extreme of the haredi and in a minority). As far as education, NO, as they must contribute to society and support themselves. When the Great Rabbis of the past stand as examples of those who both worked to support themselves while studying when they could, your desire to let haredi continue to ignore work in society (in favor of study only) seems a sham.

sure assault a female soldier in uniform disobey officers commands spit on women its just a little thing nothing serious

All valid points as these might be considered extreme - however, they are one response when such a large contingent Israelis receive a good portion of the state budget, do not serve in the Army, use all of the state's architecture, and view their contribution as 'keeping the faith'. There is a strong need for prayer as one component of Judaism - there is no need to accept spitting on 8 year old girls

...that everything that happens to people is brought upon them by God. And I look at it this way - a lot of the charedim in Israel have shut themselves off from their fellow Jewish brethren - have called them all sorts of names, have thrown rocks at them, etc. God asks for not a whole lot more than for His children to love and respect each other. If we as Jews would finally learn to respect one another, let alone LOVE one another, our enemies would disappear in an instant. Yes, it's that simple - look it up. But in any case, this should be a wakeup call to charedim who treat their fellow Jews like garbage. Wonder why everyone loves Chabad? Because they love their fellow Jews, no matter what they look like, or what they believe in and THAT is what God wants from us.

not sure if I agree with it all, but appreciate the honesty and sensitivity.

persist on telling the Israelis how to behave and live their life. Mr Amnon Levy lives in Israel and has the right to tell his friends when they are wrong and hateful, certainly not someone from Brooklyn or New york. Kol ha Kavod To Amnon Levy a very reasonable man

It would have been ok in the '60's had the Supreme Court in DC legislated that it was OK in Alabama to segregate on buses and in schools but nowhere else in the country. That is what you just stated in your TB.

Sorry, but Israel doesn't need 10% and more of its population on welfare because they are "holy" In fact they don;t feel the rest of us are Jewish-and things are only getting worse....we need a wake up call to tell them that the seculars will no longer support them-that they are on their own

I agree that minorities have a right to live their lives the way they want, and the government should not interfere. But Levy is missing two important points: 1. It is NOT acceptable in a democracy for tax payers to pay for a minority who deosn't want to work but sits all day in yeshivas. If they want to do that, it's their own business, but the average Israeli working hard to get ends meet, should not have to pay for this. 2. The haredim have no right to IMPOSE their ways on secular Israelis. What they did to that little girl and the woman soldier is simply not acceptable. I think Levy's article is simply onesided and does not want to see the whole problematic. The earlier article by Jaob Kirsch is correct. The government should STOP paying for these freeloaders, not to say parasites, after all many of them hate Israel (another point overlooked by Levy!).

I can't really believe that the solution for a person who defines himself as a liberal up to day person is to separate Israel in two. We are not talking about two different populations, we are talking about Jews and Jews! I personally believe that people who teach their children not to serve in the army shouldn't be allowed to integrate the government, but just for you to understand the point, two persons who did serve helped their children not to do so and I'm talking about Eli Yshay and Ehud Olmert. You can say Yshay is Haredi, but Olmert? The idea is not to define all Haredim nor all seculars as "different" from me, but about personal responsibility. That's a Jewish principle so it's easily accepted by both sides, why are we afraid about that? Maybe because nobody is clean enough? For the sake of secularism I will quote Jesus "He who is free of guilt is to throw the first stone"

All these last days I waited that a noble secular person, at least one of them, would speak up against the wild incitement against charedim. I thought that the Israelis had gone mad. But now I see that not all is lost... Thank you, Amnon! G-d bless you and your family!

That's fine Tom, you just keep on not buying it from Toronto.

there are real issues in need to get solved, imo. The violent pressure of some haredi extremists needs to get stoped. And what about a fair sharing of the burdens of finances, security, future development? Im sorry, but teaching Torah will not produce urgent needed engineers, scientists, programmers. I think too, that both sides should show some respect to each other, but some issues cant get ignored anylonger...

yet they are given the free reign to incite as much as they want, demand Apartheid-style laws as much as they want, have a blind-eye turned for their lack of paying taxes or following State mandated building codes, not to mention their explicit support for terrorism against Israeli citizens. It boggles my mind how the entire population turns against the introverted haradi community who wants to live as they please in seclusion but supports the extroverted Israeli Arab community which acts seditiously, and call it "democracy".

The difference lies in the expectations. No one can expect the Israeli Arabs to be loyal to a Jewish state - one whose national anthem speaks of the yearning of every jew to return home. We may believe we are the rightful owners but we must recognize that the Arab has pride too, which he will not sell for "democracy" and indoor plumbing. We (rightfully) expect little from the Arabs. We expect more from the Hareidim. Even if they are not Zionists, we expect certain minimums from other Jews. In most part, the Hareidim comply but the kometz katan ruins it for the rest.

First of all I should like to point out that the orgy of hatred currenty being directed at the ultras is a direct consequence of their own behaviour and in fact is a culmination of pent up anger at the fact that they have used violence and coercion and unjustified political clout in order not only to get their way but to impose it on all and sundry. The secular public has had enough of this and it will not be tolerated any longer, hopefully by agreement and understanding, but also by other means if necessary. The fabric of our society is being torn apart, by them and not by us. I am quite willing to let them do their thing and live as they please, the problem is that there is no reciprocation on this basic issue. They have set their goal to convert us all and turn our society into something not wanted by the majority. They are under the conviction that they are divine messengers and their mission in life is to bring us all closer to "God". Well Mr. Levi, I for one do not wish to be close to "God" and in fact I wish to be as far away as possible, and that is also the wish of most seculars. These people have no right to demand through threats and coercion that I become one of them or even that I observe some of their starnge rules and customs. I am a secular Jew, fifth generation of a family who has plowed this land and served this country with blood,sweat and lots of tears, shed while digging holes for loved ones who perished doing their duty to Nation and Homeland. I have no hatred towards these people, rather I have contempt, deep contempt. As I said, they can live as they please, but the actual hatred comes from them when they wish upon me and others that we follow them and their ways. I do not go around spitting on people, I do not call people names because they are not dressed as would suit me. I do not throw stones at cars or tell others where to sit on a bus. I do not riot in the streets and burn garbage bins. I do not attack and vandalize shops because the goods they sell are "unholy". Mr. Levi Sir, look deep into your soul and admit that they are the ones to blame, they are the wrongdoers, they show no tolerance whereas I and others do. Furthermore Sir, The current situation will end in the eradication of Israel as we know it today. In maximum 30 years from now there will be 3 main groups in this country, Secular Jews, Orthodox Jews and Muslims. Percentage wise the Muslims and Orthodox will increase and the seculars shall decrease. Their birthrate is higher for one and the seculars, on top of having a lower birthrate, will find it increasingly difficult to live here and will leave in great numbers for other pastures. This may seem a dark and dim prophesy, but if you do the numbers you will come to the same conclusion. I call this disaster and devastation and the end of a dream. I shall not be here to witness it, I consider myself lucky in this respect, I shall be "gathered unto my maker". I feel sad and sorry for all my grandchildren, just as I do for yours also.

The devil dances

The intent and the tone of the author are very laudable. However, the issue is so complex that bringing the solution down to the few proposals Mr. Levy mentions is nothing short of over-simplification. One of the most glaring omissions in the discussion is that the USA-like state/church separation Mr. Levy proposes will touch not only the haredi community but all religious groups across the board. Also, it is rather naive, not to say - counter-intuitive - to hope that the proposed complete segregation of the two segments of the society will achieve the harmony. The US Amish trick will not work in Israel. I would very much hope that the government or its combination with NGOs can start a systemic study of this issue with the spirit and intent of Mr. Levy. Both groups would be hypocritical not to strive to reach to each other. The haredi say daily "Acheinu kol beit Israel', and the secular hypocrisy is well described in the article.

Yes Sir, an atheist Jew. A Jew is a person whose ancestry goes back to Canaan and is not necessarily a believer in nonsense. Gods and devils are nonsense, figments of Man's imagination and then harnessed by those seeking to control and manipulate because they realized what a powerful weapon it would be in light of the feebleness and flexibility of the human brain. A sad reflection on Humanity. Let your devil dance if it so pleases him. Perhaps he can invite his nemesis, after all, it takes two to tango.

I was with him while he was criticizing the secular for their attitudes towards the Hareidim saying that they have more sympathy and understanding of the people in Gaza. He lost me when he declared that he wants to see buses running on Shabbat and everything else that would make this a totally secular state while leaving the Hareidim in their own communities to do what they want: separate seating on buses; educate their children the way they want to. One of the problems with this is that there are many religious who don't live in segregated closed communities. They live among the general population. And they want to! Plus, I don't want to see a totally secular society here. The majority of Israelis range from Traditional to Ultra-Orthodox. The seculars are actually in the minority. What he is advocating is putting the Hareidim into ghettos - as if they have nothing in common with the rest of the Jews living in Israel!

What I do not understand is how the secular and atheist can call themselves zionists if they do not believe in the Torah,they simply belong to Eastern Europe or somewhere else but absolutely not to Zion. The Haredim will be better off if Israel were ruled by the Arabs. If you do not believe it then go and see how freely the Jews are living in Morocco.