Opinion
The challenge of haredim
Donniel Hartman
Published: 02.02.12, 11:21
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37 Talkbacks for this article
1. Excellent analysis...but how do we..
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (02.02.12)
solve effectively this acute problem?
2. Nothing more malevolant than passive "good" people
Thinking Jew ,   Israel   (02.02.12)
3. I have a solution
Bernado ,   France   (02.02.12)
Let the Reform Judaism and the Conservative Movement take a seat alongside the Orthodox at the Israeli State Rabbinate. The monopoly of the Orthodox, who are too often in bed with the hard-liner and Haredim, is alienating the secular public (itself mainly orthodox). Monopoly tends to lead to corruption, bad governance and abuse of authority.
4. You created this problem
Babishka ,   USA/Mea Shearim   (02.02.12)
So at last you admit that Haredim have been marginalized and that mainstream society does not really want to accept them. So now there has to be some "affirmative action" to integrate this community into the IDF and the workplace. This is Ben Gurion's fault as he really believed the Haredim would dwindle and become extinct as the "New Jew" took their place. This was in all the propaganda of the 1950's and '60's. You can't complain "they don't work" and then refuse them work when they apply for jobs. You can't complain "they don't serve in the IDF" and then complain when they ask to join in large numbers, but keep their customs intact. You respect the customs of the Bedouins and the Druse! I have no problem working at a large U.S. corporation. They respect my observances. Why can't Israel do the same?
5. You have a mental Illness called the (Haredim)
hadad ,   uk   (02.02.12)
Stop this none sense for God sake, Stop talking about the Haredim as if they are out in the street with knives or guns hunting people, You are not interested any more talking about Israel enemies, you r talking about haredim more than Iran, be honest with your self ,Do you beleve in what you r writing ? Do you care about the nation ? you care about dividing the nation, you do not deserve this freedom of openion becouse you are basicly abusing it.
6. Haredim
Ed Codish ,   Pardessiya   (02.02.12)
This will prove to be a self-solving problem. Economic constraints will eventually (probably in the near future) limit family size. The strict enforcement of laws should (must) control Haredi miss-behavior. The attractions of non-Haredi life will attract more and more Haredi youth. Obviously, the State should act to prevent actual starvation and homelessness, but no more than this. Normal concepts of argumentation and persuasion will be pointless. Politically, efforts must be made to form governments that exclude the Haredi parties. This can be done if the non-Haredi voters are resolute in refusing to vote for any party that does not swear not to form Knesset alliances with the Haredi parties.
7. # 1
Eric ,   Beit Shean ,Israel   (02.02.12)
The simple solution shall be the separation of religion from state. If this fails then those that remain here will be subject to an ever failing society that shall eventually collapse.Only the young and well educated will be able to fend for themselves in new circumstances. That will leave us with the useless and non productive haredim together with the old folks, so no industry and no defence.No nothing
8. No democratic solution exists.
Michael ,   California, USA   (02.02.12)
They have never existed comfortably anywhere in the world and never will because no society around them will accept their claim to being "chosen." This history teaches us that there is no solution to the problem of Haredim. The best Israel can do within its democracy principles is to isolate them and accept those Haredim who abandon their old way of living.
9. Failure of mainstream Israeli society is it's tolerance...
JEWISH DOCTOR ,   AMERICA THE BEAUTIUL   (02.02.12)
The "failure" is the open/good hearted nature of the Israelites...the tolerance of others goes fr beyond anything seen in any other country included my beloved USA... Americans would not tolerate the heredim...Americans have limited patience with others unlike themselves. Israeli's are all in the same boat, like it or not...sink or swim together...
10. amos@avitan.ws
Amos ,   Canada   (02.02.12)
In my opinion there is only one solution. Separation of religion from state. The governance of the country should be affected by religion or religious groups.
11. to #6 and 7
shua ,   jerusalem   (02.02.12)
#6 I admire what you say! you are a real throwback .... to 1930's Germany! #7 If we do that than it won't be a Jewish State anymore.
12. # 11
Eric ,   Beit Shean, Israel   (02.02.12)
You got it right, there wont be a state if things are not put in check. ie the current situation cannot be sustained, simple as that.
13. 7 Eric I do not trust simple...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (02.02.12)
solutions for complexe problems.
14. haredim
jeff ,   MIAMI/JERUSALEM   (02.02.12)
The goverment is corrupt, the rabbis are corrupt, the people are sleeping, anyone who lives off another mans work is corrupt..no support for parasites and or sworn enemies..
15. # 13
Eric ,   Beit Shean ,Israel   (02.02.12)
Obviously you have very little or no experience in trouble shooting.Here the problem is not complex and the solution is simple. I do understand that it is difficult for you accept this. You will have to adapt to to the new reality where the haredim shall need to pay their way and share common burdens.
16. Retribution
zivron   (02.02.12)
Compared to the warsaw ghetto and the secular jewish police led by a convert i cannot see anything wrong with the massive growth of the haredi sector who can survive unemployment like no other peoples who turn to drug crime like in mexico.They give workersfronm the other lands to earn money to send to their impoverished relativres a form of foreign aid. The problem is the rich alus countries the uk and her dominions and the usa are living superrich and not matching this with supplies for israel . The haredim coulddo more alot more but there demographic growth wil provide benefit that outweighs the negative especially when security is the age of thermonuclear .
17. 15 I do understand that your plan..
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (02.02.12)
fits you ,as it is in your advantage.
18. #8 Where “to isolate them”?
Borislava ,   Sofia, Bulgaria   (02.02.12)
in Madagascar? Sounds very scary. Rabbi Dr.Hartman is right - conversation needed. First must be finding a way to direct verbal communication between haredi and secular. Not to hate and spit each other directly and indirectly. Then must to learn live and work together. Politicians and civil society (as a more tolerant) should help haredi be more contemporary and to accept that the management of the State of Israel is not exactly their (of haredi) obligation. Separation of religion and state. Excellent article
19. why must Israelis accept the haredim?
(02.02.12)
They WILL take over eventually if they are not removed. It is only self-defense to remove them from high official posts and government. Do it before it is too late or you will lose your country and your freedom to them. You are fools to try for ''understanding'' them . They don't want to understand you. They want to rule you like cattle
20. UK and haredim
(02.02.12)
Changes to the UK welfare system are about to have a serious adverse impact on Haredim living in London. Benefits are being changed to drastically cut amounts received by large families. I read an article recently saying Haredim communities are being broken up as large families are forced by benefit cuts to look foir cheaper housing outside their ttraditional neighbourhood. In typical British press style the article portrayed the situation as a grave injustice to the poor persecuted haredim. Fools!
21. #9 - We are in full agreement on this issue.
Henry from New York ,   USA   (02.03.12)
I wrote a talkback (which I hope will be published) that said what you said, but you condensed it into many fewer words. I only read yours after I finished writing mine though. Israelis need to stop this foolishness and unite.
22. #8, #19, #20 You have a solution?
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (02.03.12)
Your "solution" was already tried and didn't work. Think of something else that doesn't involve extermination.
23. Top notch journalism
StevieT ,   USA   (02.03.12)
I hope this situation resolves itself in the betterment of the Jewish people. Honest dialogue like this is a good start in that direction.
24. State Religion
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (02.03.12)
Israel to survive must be a Sate for all Jews without regard to their religious beliefs. The definition of Jewish State was never meant to mean a state ruled by Jewish religious law (Halacha). Israel must include the celebration of Jewish religious holidays in its laws as well as the requirement for any public eatery such as the IDF, hospitals and work places serve kosher food. Other than that Israel must separate religion and government. Unfortunately Israel is not a true democracy because the system of collation government gives too much power to minority political partys. The situation could be vastly improved by electing legislators by areas like MPs are elected in England.
25. #22
(02.03.12)
You can have eventual Haredim rule over seculars or assimilation. If seculars act now and force haredim to assimilate into the culture around them there is still hope. If you look at successful harmonious colonial societies they have all involved intermarriage between colonialists and natives. If the haredim are allowed to segregate themselves from everyone else then there is no hope. They will outbreed and outwit the seculars and eventually rule them as a second-class group of citizens.
26. #24 political system
Marc   (02.03.12)
Israeli political system is more democratically advanced than the US or UK system. It is similar to Germany, Scandanavia, New Zealand . .which rate higher on ''democracy'' rating scale than US or UK. You are one who need to get modern
27. The Real Issue
Joe ,   ISRAEL   (02.03.12)
The State of Israel as a sovereign state has the duty to define itself. What is problematic is the fact that it has no absolute right to define Judaism. It is patently absurd to conceive of a Judaism devoid of God. To define 'Jewish' in statistical terms, as is done, is demeaning to our historical past. What the learned scholar is proposing is comparable to squaring the circle. Yes we need tolerance and pluralism in order to survive as a state: just as we compromise in the Knesset in order to survive as a polity. Is that really what Judaism is all about?
28. #22
(02.03.12)
they are a closed group with two different moral codes...honest when dealing with each but not so honest when dealing with outsiders like seculars .Israel cannot survive with a small group which regards outsiders as enemies to be exploited If its not their religion which makes them like this maybe its in their DNA. Someone needs to stand up and tell the plain thruth about them, Enough is enough.
29. #25 #28 anonymous talkbacker suggesting genocide
Kyle ,   Southpark, CO, USA   (02.03.12)
It seems that, like #8, #19, and #20 you have no "solution" other than, "force them to assimilate" or else what? Re-education camps like in North Korea? #28 If "they're a closed group" then how do you know so much about them? "its in their DNA" they have the same DNA as you!
30. #22, I meant ISOLATE them within Israel.
Michael ,   California, USA   (02.03.12)
That's the solution I wrote about in #8. Let them live in their ghettos without allowing new exclusive territories to them. Take away most of the unique welfare and family support. Absorb when some of them decide to de-haredi themselves (hozrim b'sheela). In other words, treat them the same way secular population is treated. They can pray INSIDE their homes and synagogues as much as they want, but not when secular population is disturbed by their presence.
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