Long term the big losers will be the people who are not religious its been proven abroad. You have plenty of public transport on Saturday and then companies see an opportunity to turn Saturday into a day of profit rather than a day of rest. Gradually we will see more and more stores open and if companies want to open their businesses they need employees who will work on Saturday. Eventually it reaches a stage where o Saturday is a day off on paper but so many places will be opening that it may as well be any other day of the week. When you apply for a job you will probably have to ask if your willing to work on Saturday but another equally qualified candidate who will work on Saturday will get the job. In the end the only winners will be the religious who will spend their Saturday at home whilst everybody else who over time will be pressured into working will wake up one Saturday morning and discover they never get a day off. If there is a big push for Saturday busses in Tel Aviv then its residents are going to get their first taste of religious v secular fighting and which is already tearing the country apart so we don't need more of it. Israel is supposed to be a Jewish state but the secular elite seem to be desperate to tear down all the walls of religion as if we are trying to cure a cancer. The real issue here is DO WE WANT A JEWISH STATE or do we just want another religion free Europe or America because you can't have both.

they don't have to ride the buses on shabbat....walk, skip trot to the shul. but leave the rest of the world alone to function in a DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM DRIVEN SOCIETY... keep your religion to yourselves as WE DO... I don't impose my witchcraft/devil worship on you...don't impose yours on me. I keep my personal hell to myself. Don't smear your beliefs on me, I am not interested. NOR SHOULD I BE BULLIED INTO FOLLOWING YOUR BELIEFS! On saturday, I need a bus to get to go where I need to go. Heredim, look the other way, just like when Israel needs it's people to defend the state.

I agree with you entirely. The only claim Jews have to this land is based on Torah nothing more and Israel was created to be a Jewish state. If we don't want a Jewish state then lets do the MORAL thing and give the entire country to the arabs & Muslims who still have a little bit of respect for their faith and customs so will appreciate being rulers of this land alot more than the Jews will. Seculars like to make fun of the haredi who wear 19th century Eastern European clothing but in reality its the secular elite who want to be European have a nice religion free country whilst the ones who dress European want to be Jewish and keep Jewish customs.

For your information, I do walk. I choose not to ride the bus. But it is my choice. I also have some physical disabilities that keep me from riding a bike and my father has been dead for years. Why the venom??? We disagree, that's all.

Maybe driver is not married and need extra pay from working on Shabat. p.s. ...or maybe he is married to you and wants to work 24/7.I feel his pain...

Why should the religious not be happy with buses NOT running on Shabbat?

when me and my son heard the news .I said NO dont let them take the quiet of shabbat from tel aviv. We live on a main motor way and I said whats next? holidays? Yom Kippur(there are already cars on this day) I was glad to see the article :-)

No one here so far seems to be aware of the fact that there is already transportation on Shabbat - moniot sherut. There are intra-city lines that go from many cities (J'slm included) to TA, as well as inter-city lines that go to wherever they go in TA. That being said, busses on Shabbat is a bad ides, as are makolets and grocery stores (I'm looking at YOU, AM-PM), etc. Those who have the least choices in life / most desperate for work will be the ones forced to cater to the rest

We get no say, yes? We do not get to define the shape and limits of the public sphere? We do not get to say what constitutes a day of rest and what that entails? We have no bearing on the national bearing of this country? Oh, and incidentally, I'm not ultra-Orthodox, but I *am* an Orthodox Jew. And you've decided that you get to define the public sphere and I don't. And yes, you do impose on me when you do that - that's what rules on what goes on on the public or national level *mean*. If it means I'm imposing something on *you* when I get a say in defining how this country functions, then I'm sorry to say that the reverse applies. You are forcing your secular humanism on me - it's what you call *normal*. You don't even notice it anymore. And no, I'm not *forcing* you to do anything on the personal level. I'm not shoving you out of transport on Shabbat. I *am* however in favor on limiting its publicly sanctioned availability, yes. You are in favor of something else. That's nice and democratic so far. The niceties end when you pretend that you're good and righteous, and the rest of us are in the wrong by definition.

Start running the buses without the national government's permission. Facts on the ground, not law, are what counts here.

And I , as a SECULAR , WAS INTERESTED in Israel .

you have'nt to take a bus on shabbat , we want them . You impose YOUR lifestyle on us . Even abroad some shouted "shabbes" at me when i was taking my car . Another asked me not to use my car this day . There too they tried to IMPOSE their lifestyle on me . The public sphere is OURS TOO , not only your's . We are paying taxes , contribute to the State and have some rights . Not only you .

Jews who are still abroad after 60 years of Israels existence.

You know also why many don't make Alyah as you and i did . Changing your life COMPLETELY , leaving a country where you were born , know every street , have family and friends is not easy . It's not only a lack of interest . Why did'nt you , or i , make alyah earlier ? Not a lack of interest , many other factors play a big role too , שבת שלום

But very well. Here's the thing. I do not impose my lifestyle on you anymore than you impose your lifestyle on me. And quite frankly, I never shouted "Shabbes" on you in person, be it here or abroad. Of course, you meant that as a broad generalization, right? Funny how that works out. But part of being in a shared community of *any* kind is that it has shared norms, shared *rules*. On a larger scale, we call this collective a country. And it has rules about private space and public space. Perhaps you'll tell me that I'm imposing my lifestyle on you through excessive driving regulations, eh? Shared medium means give and take, it means no one has it perfect by *definition*. And the secular Israel already defines the vast majority of the private *and* the public sphere - disagree? You say you're not shoving me into buses? That's nice. That's a private concern. I'm not shoving you *out* of them, either, or shouting on you. I don't want buses on Shabbat in the *public* sphere, which is also *my* public sphere, not just yours. That's *my* preference. You see, if you live in a world where *not* having a publicly approved bus on the day of rest is me *imposing* somehow, then so is *having* it. It's simply the other way around - a different set of parties imposing *their* norm on the public sphere.

First , i did'nt generalize about what happened abroad . I said that EVEN there some want to impose their lifestyle on us . Shared norms : we have to share YOUR norms by having to stay at home Shabbat . In this case it are WE who are giving , as we do already more than enough . Yes YOU impose your Shabbat lifestyle on us . Yes we share a country , You want it perfect for YOU , we have to give in . Your preference is against MINE . That was always the way religious behave , everything for us , nothing for the other side .

As usual, you're ignoring secular influence on the public sphere, focusing on non-secular influence on the public sphere, and calling it "coercion". Except when you change it to your comfort, it's normal. It's to be expected. Anything else is *coercion*, right? We'll, here's the reality *I* live in. The norms of acceptable dress in public offend me. As do the norms of public advertising. As do the norms of business, such as hotels that advertise the fact their availability to young unmarried couples in Tel-Aviv. The norm of prostitution, of "massage parlors" whose illegality is ignored, that norm is revolting to me. The norm in the mainstream television channels is all about sex, blitz, and more sex, which is against my core values. The norm on the radio is vulgarity and swearing, also something that I'm against. The norm in swimming pools, public or private, and gyms, is skimpy clothes and mixed genders, something that keeps me out at most hours - and when a gym allots hours in the middle of the night for us oddball religious in the Technion, it's marked as coercion. As exclusion of women. And all of that is *yours*, Charles. This is *your* world. *Your* country. *Your* norms. And all of them are imposed on me on a regular, daily basis. I can't avert my eyes and pretend not to see, or close my ears and pretend not to hear, or spend a fortune on personal gym appliances for home, or build myself a private pool. And yet you don't notice or care. Because for you, all of the above is the *norm*. And you wish to drag the public sphere even further away from me, because you can't stand seem to stand the idea of sharing it. And I'm imposing on you, you say? The religious just take, and don't give? Well in that case, some seculars are too self-centered and blind to anything but their own needs, and I'll leave it at that.

I don't think the bus issue would have come up if the haredi rabbis, rabbinical leaders had come out forcefully against the radical haredi extremists like those in Beit Shemesh. Some spoke up somewhat weakly but there was no clear solid and unequivocal across the board condemnation. All they had to do was say that this type of behavior will negatively influence the marriages of their kids.This is a warning to haredim to clean up their act. Some have adopted violence against fellow Jews which can NEVER be acceptable. The practice of defacing signs with women's faces (even if only a face was shown) was countered in Kiryat Yovel in JRS by seculars placing great artworks of nude women on the streets on Shabbat. Is this a provocation? Maybe. Is it violence? NO. Charles-maybe fight for better cheaper sherut service on Shabbat. Roman-stand up against haredi violence verbal and physical. (including garbage can burning). then maybe we can share this tiny space called Israel in peace.

If an unmarried couple want to be together in an Hotel what business is this of yours - who are you to decide for them? If you find mainstream TV offensive dont watch it and if you dont like the Adverts dont look at them. You have the right of choice along with all the other citizens of Israel what you dont have is the right to deny that choice to others. If you wish to be religious that is excellent but if your neighbor does not that is his business not yours. You wish to impose your values on others and they dont want to know but that is how democracy works If the people of T/A want buses on Saturday then if a referendum is held and the majority approve it then it will happen. Finally with regards to swearing I agree with you! Moshe

Complaining , but taking more and more .That's your way . Nobody imposes you to watch TV , listen to the radio , go to the swimming pool , etc etc . There are separate swimming pools , use them . Is'nt there a separate gym ? not enough demand by your alikes ! they prefer sitting , at our expernses , in their yeshivot . We have to get married by a rabbi , buried the same way . Listen to "el male rachamim" when assisting a commemoration for fallen soldiers . See the way many of your alikes dress . We have to listen to "mizmor shir leshabbat" every Shabbat at 7 AM . while waiting for the news to begin [ i'm not talking about the daily "kriat shema" where you can listen ] You even want to put your noose in PRIVATE swimming pools .: EVEN IN PRIVATE pools . Yes this all is because you take . And i'm not talking about the money we pay for many of your alikes [ not you if you told the truth ] to sit in their yeshivot . That's also TAKE . That is your "sharing" of our country . And , distorting my writings , also your speciality , Roman ! TRY # 3

Sherout moniot is a completely private business . They will only be riding where there is a vast demand , so that they are riding with no empty seats . They are not paid by the State to give free travel for soldiers or reductions for pensioneers . I only know 4 routes by those moniot [in my regiobn ] . Two from my town to Tel Aviv and two in Tel Aviv . When there is demand , prices are rising , so they will not reduce their fares .

Those who can give are on the right side. Nothing to complain about.Quite the opposite.May you never need help. Be happy.Shavua Tov.

I'm not the one trying to change the norm in the public sphere, right? I gave up on it ages ago. It's yours. You're the norm. You define it, even as you fail to understand what I just wrote. So I shouldn't watch television, because it's directed at *you*. And I shouldn't listen to the radio, because it's directed at *you*. And I should go to my two-hours-a-week, every-odd-week separate hours in the pool, you say? Funny how that works out. As for the gym, there's demand, alright. But there's also a bunch of people who will complain, I was told, of religious coercion should there be more separate hours. Time and time again. And do you know what's the average of "separate hours" in gyms? Try one hour a week. In hours when the "normal", secular-minded customers don't attend. My "alikes*, Charles, serve in the military to the point when Golani's commander is complaining that the unit is too homogenous - far too many yarmulkes! And as for your support for Yeshivot, suffice to say that the state gives little and tardily in the first place. Where are *my* pools (many of which are municipal), Charles? Where's *my* television? Where's *my* radio? Where's *my* public sphere? I'll tell you where - nowhere. It doesn't much belong to *me* at this time, unless you (hah) bring up prayers on TV during Shabbat (funny who thought that one up, because no Orthodox Jew will ever hear it from there), or the Kri'at Shma, shown on TV at the crack of dawn? It's funny how TV (and more specificly, channel 11) only ever gives that particular nod to tradition when there's no one around to hear. But yes, you grumble, we still have marriages, and burial, and the commemoration of the fallen, the latter already being modified into a bastardized form of the prayer as it is. Given time, I'm sure you'll tear that away as well, and make everything as secular as possible for your own convenience. And then you'll go shout at the Haredim to integrate into this wonderful society you made, even as you shear away the last vestiges of Jewish tradition from it and alienate all religious Jews from it. This is my home, too, Charles. And I'll have a say in how its built. Whether you like it or not. And no matter how often you cry "Religious coercion!" whenever someone religious complains.

That couple can do as it pleases, but I can't unsee the ads for the hotel in the middle of the street. Nor can I unsee the adverts splattered in every newspaper, magazine, billboard, and wall. All of them focused on selling junk through sex. The same billboards, I might add, are very strategically placed for maximum (hah) exposure, even when one drives on the road. I can't pluck my eyes out, Moshe. I can't walk around blind. And in this way, I'm sorry, the secular norm is very much imposed on me, whether I like it or not. One can only look the other way, I'm afraid, when one has already seen something untoward. As for people in Tel-Aviv... try people in Israel. We all have our votes. I do as well. *that* is the point. And lately, I get the feeling that some have more votes than others.

when it's done voluntarely , not when it's IMPOSED on you . Have a very fine week .

The Status Quo that dates back to David Ben-Gurion and the Chazon Ish is part of the fabric of Israeli society. Neither side should tamper with it. Israel is a Jewish and democratic state and both sides agreed to this guideline.

Bus drivers have a right to be off on Shabbat like everyone else. Buses are not like hospitals, fire dept. or police. Public transport is the first step of turning Shabbat from a day of rest into another busy work day.

I am not religious, I do not own a car, but I agree with the author. I am more than happy to stand by a culture of a quiet Shabbat. In this loud and crowded land and busy city, it is a pleasure to have a reason to stay near home. I consider it a time to devote to relaxing at home, and helping to improve my building and neighbourhood so that it doesn't feel like a chore to stay around, after all it is home and most of us don't get to spend that much waking time there during the week! The weekly street barbecues in the kerem HaTeimanim and hatikva quarters are a beautiful example of residents of a quarter using non religious shabbat to spend nice time with each other