Haredi assimilation? Not yet
Donniel Hartman
Published: 28.02.12, 00:16
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1. No way to exempt Arabs and obligate Hareidim
Pat   (02.28.12)
There has to be one rule for all citizens.
2. "Not yet"
David ,   New York, NY   (02.28.12)
Note the author's well-founded belief that "Israel [is commiting] national suicide" and his statement that "...the the ultra-Orthodox ...necessitates a similar accomodation [as shown to Israeli Arabs]. So certainly in a very meaningful way he equates the two in terms of their "distinctness," a euphemism if ever there was one. (Quite "flattering" to the Haredim.)But is there an urgency in addressing the problem? No! After sixty years, "Not yet." The collective wisdom of Israeli history and culture is that Tzahal is a important tool in bringing about the integration of an individual into Israeli society. But I guess we should wait another 60 years or so before we at least ATTEMPT it. Instead, let's do, what? The author offers not one idea except "Not yet." At the VERY LEAST, let the Haredi "pick up the check" for their "distinctness" rather than leading the nation on a path to "national suicide." In America we have the Amish and Mennonites who choose to live lives of "distinctness" but they don't ask the rest of America to pick up the check.
3. After all tyhat the author has stated it comes down to one
Al   (02.28.12)
thing and one thing only. Who will defend the country? If you are a Jew in Israel and you want to be live, you have no choice but to learn to defend yourself. All of the other arguments are BS. Your fellow Arab Israelis couldnt care less for your welfare , except for maybe some Druze. If Jews dont want to pony up and defend the country then history will judge the Jews of Israel much like the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto. Too little ...too late...gone. Both the orthoquack who refuse to serve and the uber liberal brain dead who refuse to serve, are, as far as I'm concerned, useless. They should be cut off, from welfare, student loans etc. As long as Israel has a conscript army and you dont serve well then you do not get any benefits. The SC did the right thing by negating the Tal law. Israel is in mortal danger, it must have every abled bodied Jew ready to defend the country, no exceptions.
4. Haredim in the military
Moshe ,   New York City, USA   (02.28.12)
Haredim can be integrated into the military in non-combat support roles - intelligence, signals, transport, etc, without compromising anyone's beliefs or culture. They have as much an obligation to protect themselves, their families and their communities as do all Israelis and there is certainly nothing in Halakha or Minhag that prevents them from doing so. In a national crisis, all Jews must unite in the common defense and in common prayer - that is precisely what the Torah requires.
5. a sane article but I disagree on one point
David ,   Shiloh Israel   (02.28.12)
It is encouraging to read a more balanced article about the Hardi role in Israel, without resorting to mass hysteria. However, I believe that careful and 'limited' integration through the IDF is desirable. The key would be more through continued encouragement to join the IDF, rather than forced inscription, which Jews experienced in Russia over a century ago. I believe IDF integration could work both ways. First, it could serve as a vessel to promote a better understanding of the Torah related argument for Jews to serve in a Jewish army. Therein also lies the key to my second point; without 'forcing' religion upon serving hayilim, hopefully a broader understanding of the place of Torah in our society, including the army, could also filter down through the ranks. The real question is whether we encourage further seperation or aim for a better integration within our Jewish segment of Israel? I would always opt for anything reasonable that could facilitate unity.
6. Hartman is only partly right...
ORA ,   JERUSALEM   (02.28.12)
The orthodox Jews to incorporate some modernity within its Tora might make more sense to them , if the secular Jews would incorporate some Tora within their western culture.This way we might little by little become Am Ehad.
7. One fallacy:
solomon ,   bklyn   (02.28.12)
“so long as the haredi minority...does not try to dictate the life of the majority, or does not violate the fundamental values and standards of democracy and equality” They have already begun to do so through the Chief Rabbinate and their positions in government.
8. Cut their funding for a start
Haim ,   TA   (02.28.12)
You dont serve, then you dont get welfare its as simple as that. Dont expect me as a tax payer to pay for your litter of 10 kids while you sit on your holy ass all day pretending to study.
9. Its about money
David ,   Tel-Aviv, Israel   (02.28.12)
Just cut off the crazy non democratic funding to these shirkers and the rest will follow. ie joining the workforce and eventually joining the army.
10. "Not yet" is premature
Beth Frank-Backman ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (02.28.12)
First, we don't really know what will happen once there is one draft for all. Just because rabbis are rattling their swords doesn't mean the haredi public will follow. Haredi rabbis are also rattling swords about secular education and having a job, but more and more haredim are going to college. We simply don't know until we follow this where it goes, so "wait, not yet" is simply inappropriate. its a recipe for bulying and manipulation. "I'll do X if you ...." Second, I really think we need to make a distinction between equal burden to participate in national service and integration. Haredim as a distinct sect have every right to resist integration, but that doesn't have to be an excuse to avoid service. There are pure Haredi all male units, even combat units. I suspect if we widen those programs coupled with the withdrawal of financial support from yeshivas housing draft-dogers, we'll see quite a bit more willingness to go into the army.
11. you all got it wrong
shua ,   jerusalem   (02.28.12)
First of all you can't modernize torah, the idea is like shifting traffic laws to fit your needs.And at the same time maybe seculars who still want to be identified as jews should incorperate some torah in their secular lives. Second, the reason for haredim not enlisting has nothing to do with not wanting to protect the homeland. It has to do with the secular coersion that makes it hard. I know, I served. Everything from having your mifakedet touching you on the shoulder while doing a morning workout to being hit on by the mashakit makes it hard for the haredi man to serve. When the army is ready to comply with there lifestyle than there is what to talk about.
12. There is only ONE Jewish people
Menachem ,   Israel   (02.28.12)
The writer fails to note that Haredi Jews are not one uniform mass and includes a large and growing segment on moderate people who study at universities, work, join the army and other national programs and identify with Israel and the Jewish people. With time and hard work, the gap between haredi and non-haredi Jews in Israel can be bridged just like the gap between ashkenazi and mizrahi and sephardi Jews were bridged in the last decades. The division between Haredi and non-haredi Jews is artificial and stupid because there is only ONE Jewish people.
13. Shua & Menachem
Alice ,   Montreal, Canada   (02.28.12)
I agree with both of you.
14. I also agree with Shua and Menachem
Valery ,   Israel   (02.29.12)
But why do you all forget about the voluntarily charitable activities of the charedi community - Yad Sarah, ZAKA, etc. - that covers all people: the religious, secular, Arabs? This chesed (mercy) without limits attracted me to the charedi community in the first place when I immigrated to Israel and searched for a suitable place in the society.
15. #11 shua
solomon ,   bklyn   (02.29.12)
The Torah has been modernized since the get go, as seen in the Talmud and reflected in haredi practice. I read that a man should not cut his hair, yet it is cut with payot remaining as a 'reminder'. The law is also circumvented in spirit, if not in technicality. The problem is that people ignore this.
16. Remember the sages
Jackie ,   Florida   (02.29.12)
Rashi was not only a teacher and one of the great scholars of his time, he also ran a business. he ambam studied and wrote but was also a physician. Why do the Orthodox in Israel feel that study alone is an occupation?
17. Ora , you again pose conditions
Charles ,   Petach Tikva   (02.29.12)
for the integration of orthodox Jews in society . Tora and Western culture can't be associated .
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