Opinion
Privileged to serve nation
David Ha'ivri
Published: 09.05.12, 11:53
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31 Talkbacks for this article
1. Quite apart from
Tim ,   Brighton   (05.09.12)
The unity of purpose, social cohesion, mutual respect of each others faiths and cultures, character building, friendship...
2. And every jew should
Moshe Roshkov ,   Israel   (05.09.12)
Keep Shabbat !.... Dont tell me to serve your daydream and I will not tell you to serve myn!
3. In" Start up nation" part of the success is attributed to
PETER SM ,   MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA   (05.09.12)
IDF service.
4. I agree completely with David Ha'ivri
Rod ,   Fargo N.Dakota   (05.09.12)
If the proponents of this law included everyone in Israel not just pointing to the Orthodox.I think everyone would think it fair and agree to it.
5. ALL-hands-on-deck!
Jake Stone ,   USA   (05.09.12)
Since Israel lives in the most dangerous neighborhood in the world, everyone should, willfully and proudly, serve to protect the only true and free society in the Middle East. In God's view, Jerusalem is the center of the earth; thus, needs to be protected with all diligence. Those who avoid and shirk their duties, as a responsible citizen, should be thrown-out of the country; they're cowards, and should not be able to share in all the benefits that were earned by so many's sacrifices' for freedom. God bless, Israel!
6. ...
Sammy Rothchild ,   Ramot   (05.09.12)
only the ones who learn the holy Torah for the sake of learning NOT for the sake of sikpping the IDF service should be allowed to prospone their servse
7. ridiculous, no Jew belongs in this evil army
Ephraim ,   Tapuah   (05.09.12)
This is the army that fights to destroy Judaism and the Jewish heritage, to make Israel into a nation like all others, to sever our connection to G-d. This is the army that hasn't won a single war against Arabs since 1973, but fights so successfully against Jewish settlements in Gush Katif, Shomron, and soon, G-d forbid, in Golan. This is the army that causes more problems to Jews than any other, the only army in the world that destroys Jewish settlements, that caused more damage to Jews here in Samaria than Hamas and Iranian Army put together. this is the only army that actively fights against Judaism, forcing young soldiers to listen to immodest women singing, forcing upon them unkosher food, and putting subtle and not so subtle pressure for soldiers to abandon Judaism. We both live in Kfar Tapuach, how many young guys from here do we know that went to the army and threw away their kippot? G-d give us, that this evil army will be dissolved very soon. Better no army at all than this anti-semitic, poor excuse for a defense force.
8. Bi-national state
True ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (05.09.12)
Why not make Israel a Bi-national state? The State would allow everyone to make a one-time, irrevocable decision at age 18. Choosing Israeli citizenship means going to the Army. Choosing Pal citizenship means higher taxes, less benefits. The Knesset would administer both states and would make the laws for both states. Everyone over 18 would be grandfathered in under the current system.
9. Ephraim Rubbish talk will destroy you from within
PETER SM ,   AUSTRALIA   (05.09.12)
and without Think before you speak Work for change with not against .Remember Kamtza & Bar Kamtza"Lo necherav Yerushalaim ello al Sinass Ninon bilvad" Without the IDF you and your family are finished
10. To #2 Moshe Roshkov
Jose Cunha ,   Sao Paulo - Brasil   (05.09.12)
To engage IDF is protect the life, and this prevail over shabat. It is a pity a lot of dumkopf like you think the way you think.
11. To #7 Efraim the ridiculous
Jose Cunha ,   Sao Paulo - Brasil   (05.09.12)
The same I told to #2 Moshe I tll to you. You deserve to be left in a muslim country. The government and the people in ISRAEL should expell you from ISRAEL.
12. Good article...well written
Scott ,   Haifa   (05.09.12)
13. #7 - and will protect you if there is no "evil" army?
Scott ,   Haifa   (05.09.12)
I know God fights for us but what would happen realistically if there were no soilders to guard our borders during Nakba day and all the other days that our "friends" want to overrun our country.
14. Follow up re "who will protect me if there is no army?"
Ephraim ,   Tapuah   (05.09.12)
A few responses I've got, is that the Army protects me, and if it wasn't for the army, the muslims would already kill me. You are wrong. First of all, the army hasn't successfully fought against Arabs since 1973, every operation it has since has either failed, or wasn't brought to completion. Secondly, the Arabs are not too much of a threat. Gone are the days when they were armed by the Soviet Union, and when Syria had more tanks that Hitler at his heyday. Today's arabs are weak, unorganized, hated by the whole world, and at arms with one another. Finally, and most importantly, We will protect ourselves when there is no army. Today, I don't have a gun. David HaIvri, the writer of this article, and someone I know personally, also doesn't have a gun. Why don't we have guns to protects ourselves and our surroundings from Arabs etc.? Because of the Army. The army took David HaIvri's gun from him, and won't let me have one. THE ARMY PREVENTS US FROM PROTECTING OURSELVES. Once the army is gone (B'ezrat Hashem, soon) we will be able to arm ourselves, and defend ourselves from any arabs, or any other threats that endanger our community. Other Jews will too. Then, when we are no longer forced dependence on the army to protect us, we can finally nurture our dependence on the Only One Who always Stood by us and by our forefathers, and Gave us all the victories we've ever had. P.S. Same arguments you make for tzahal to protect us, could've been made, and were made for the british army, i.e. if the british army leaves, who will protect us from barbarian arabs? P.P.S. flag waving, and pointing to external threats is the most classic took that evil governments use to legitimize their staying in power.
15. All Israelis Arabs and Jews should serve
Rami of Nazareth ,   Israel   (05.09.12)
I agree, all Israeli arabs should serve, not just a segment of the community. Moreover, the state should also live up to its responsibility and eliminate discrimination against israeli arabs specially when it comes to economic development and opportunities, education, budget allocation, etc...
16. Ephraim #4, #7, you are delirious
Avi ,   Ramat HaSharon   (05.09.12)
and I honestly hope nobody buys into the mindless drivel you are postulating
17. A Jewish state has no right to loyalty from non-Jews.
Jacob   (05.09.12)
An Israeli state would have the right to conscript all its citizens. A Jewish state, however, only has the right to demand loyalty from Jews (if that). A social contract has to work both ways If Israel chooses to become a genuine state for all its citizens then it will have the right to call on the loyalty of all. For as long as it continues to make clear to its indigenous minorities that it is not their state, it will not have the right to call on their loyalty. It has an obligation to treat its second-class citizens as well as or better than its Jews, but it has no right to demand - and does not deserve - anything other than hatred and oppostion in return from them. A state which is not a state for all its citizens can never be a fully legitimate state.
18. Serving in the army is only one way to serve Israel
Rachel ,   Be'ersheva, Israel   (05.09.12)
I made Aliyah after the age of 20, am married, and a woman. I have decided to dedicate my life to working for various Zionist organizations, promoting Israel, but I did not serve in the IDF. Is Ha'ivri really suggesting that people like me should be punished because we have decided to work for Israel in other ways than joining the IDF? Note, I didn't evade the draft. The IDF didn't want a married woman over 20. Why should I not benefit from other services that other Israelis benefit from just because I chose to serve Israel in other ways? People should open their minds and understand that army is not the only way to serve Israel. However, I agree that if you didn't make Aliyah after age 20 as a woman, you should serve in the IDF. Both Arabs and Haredim should serve either in the IDF or do some kind of national service. Yet Olim who make Aliyah after a certain age shouldn't face sanctions, especially if they are working for Zionist organizations!
19. Serving in the IDF
Chaim Leibowitz ,   Modiin Israel   (05.09.12)
@18 Where in the article is it inferred that that the author was talking about your type of situation? I made aliyah at the age of 35 so obviously I wasnt called on to serve. What I am doing is raising my children to understand that preotecting our country is the resposibility of every citizen and teaching them that its an HONOR to serve their country not a chore. To all those spouting driver in regards to the IDF, no army/person/state is perfect-if you have an issue try to promote change not whine on Ynet talkbacks. I am Dati yet I work with Isreali Arabs alot and frankly many of them lve on a higher standard than I do and they agree for the most part that their lives would be terrible if they lived under arab rule and they would be happy to serve the country. As far as the chareidim go I think that the elimination of the TAL law will be a blessing in disguise. Through out Jewish History the religeous and pious have picked up swords to fight our enemies and we can learn alot from this history. @17 Jacob I believe the issue lies will the citizens themselves, they refuse to accept all the responsibilities hence they dont garner all the benefits.
20. Amen to that!
Jon ,   Israel   (05.09.12)
21. Integration or "no Arabs, no terror", which is it David?
Steve Benassi ,   Silver Bay, MN USA   (05.09.12)
...are you evolving to an equal rights for all position in Palestine Israel?
22. A religious reason not to serve
Ephraim ,   Tapuah   (05.09.12)
If you believe in Hashem, then you believe that it is he who truly defends us from attackers, and he is using the army as the tool to do so. So if we don't enlist in the anti-Torah army, and instead study his Torah, and pray, do you think he will be more or less likely to protect us, using whatever other tools he want?
23. #7, #14, #22 Epraim - wrong, wrong and wrong again
solomon ,   bklyn   (05.09.12)
Active defense trumps 'prayers only'. HaShem helps a moving vessel, not one dead in the water. Hence the Jewish armies you read about in the Torah. I think that if Israelis don't enlist in the Israeli army, and instead ‘only’ study his Torah and pray, that HaShem will be less likely to protect us. It's happened before. If nothing else, the Shoah should have shown you that. [Full disclosure: I was a shlav-betnik when I lived in Israel.] The Haganah and later the IDF prove that organized defense is better then unorganized defense. Before you place the entire nation under your views of trusting in Ha Shem...I was going to say you should throw yourself into the sea during a tsunami. Forgive me; please don't do that, as you would drown. "The army prevents us from protecting ourselves"?! Pure drivel. When the Brits left, it took an organization like the Haganah to protect us. Massacres were the result when we left our protection to individuals. If the IDF wasn't successful, we would all be dhimmi, with passports in arabcd (at least those of us who would still be alive). The IDF anti-semitic? You disregard those datiim who are in the army? Or do you simply disregard all those who don't agree with you? And the IDF forces non-kosher food on you? Where do you get such total nonsense? You are wrong, wrong and wrong again.
24. Re: 23 - Why don't you understand what the IDF really is?
Jewish Jew ,   Itamar   (05.09.12)
The IDF is the only State-owned army in the whole world today that destroys Jewish housing, because it is Jewish, synagogues and beit midrashim, Torah study houses, because they are Jewish, harass Jewish soldiers, guess why? Because they are Jewish. Maybe you don't know, but the IDF's Chief "rabbi" declared that military orders override halacha (Jewish Law). HaIvri is wrong, wrong, wrong: No Jew should serve such a despicable joint!
25. #24
Gee ,   Zikron Yaakov   (05.10.12)
As a retired secular IDF officer I never destroyed anybody's home, study house or place of worship because of religion. Nor would I had ever obeyed such an order. To destroy anything because it belongs to a person of one religion or another is plain wrong and totally despicable. And that applies to all religions. I would have refused any such order and so would have any of my fellow officers. Guess that is why I stayed a Lt Col.
26. Ephraim& "Jew".The IDF has huge numbers of observant Jews at
PETER SM ,   MELBOURNE AUSTRALIA   (05.10.12)
every level. A state where everyone does their own thing is a failed state,the results of that are historically self evident.,as is the outcome of the Biryonim. Why stop at refusing to serve in the IDF? Why not pray that you can just pray & learn all day & get the manna min Hashomayim?
27. #24
solomon ,   bklyn   (05.10.12)
Maybe you don't know, but military orders SHOULD override halacha, as it could be or develop into a life and death situation. Was the Haganah orthodox? No. Are they one of the reasons, if not the main reason, that there is a State of Israel? Yes. Sorry, but you are in denial.
28. Diaspora Jews
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (05.10.12)
What interests many of us Diaspora Jews is the demands made by Reform and Progressive Jewish groups who seldom choose to live in Israel or to serve in the IDF, but who want a say in Israel's religious life. Israeli policies cannot be made in LA or elsewhere in the USA. They must be made in Israel by Israeli citizens. Israeli Haredim contribute more to Israeli life and religion than Diaspora Reformers.
29. Every state pushes the same propaganda
Tomek ,   Poland   (05.10.12)
Non-voluntary military service is neither a privilege nor an honor. If it were, a state would not carry a large stick for those who would kindly prefer to pass on this alleged privilege. Killing and getting killed in the name of a state is one of the worst activities our species invented. That's why I am always baffled as to why people volunteer to do such things.
30. #29 tomek
solomon ,   bklyn   (05.10.12)
It may have to do with survival; knowing that your country is surrounded by enemies and wanting to contribute to the survival of your country, your family, your friends. Much like the many Poles who volunteered to fight in WW2. In some countries, such as Israel, the army is also a social institution, bringing people from different backgrounds together.
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