I'll explain it Chaim. Secular men treat women like their equals, don't get famusht over a naval showing or a little skin and certainly can keep it in their pants. What about you?

It took a while, but there you have it: a subject we can agree on. Sing loud, sing strong!

... there will never be an end to religious modesty regulations. It will always get stricter and stricter until women are forbidden education and locked in their basements like in some of our neighbouring countries. Modesty is relative. If you can't control your temptations you should be the one disciplined and leave the women alone. If you do anything in the extreme you'll end up doing the opposite. That's why ultra-religious men are ultra sensitive to a women's presents. When you force people to do something against their will, like dressing a certain way it doesn't make them any more pious. In fact it creates a system of fake religious people who are too scared to say or do what they really feel inside. If all the fake religious people that are only going "through the motions" in order to please their communities would stop suddenly, I bet their wouldn't be very many religious people left. Good luck implementing the ways of the dark side of the force, it will only backfire on you.

You can't pinhole the Orthodox. There are the modern orthodox to the very conservative. Everybody finds the way that is comfortable for themselves.

Girls and boys together in the same kvoutsa , and dancing a Hora together too . What a shock for me to see them years later , at Yom haatsmaouth in Yeroushalaim , dancing separately . Radicalism does NOT benefit to religion , it only distance people from orthodox "beliefs"

Again another big lie from this sarah .

and they have activities and trips together. If I wanted strict segregation i'd send them to Ezra, but i don't. Bnei Akiva (at least in our branch) is still more about chesed than tsniyut. I do agree that the bnei akiva leadership has gone overboard with their recent decision to enter politics, and the director should be removed from his post.

...parent"? If you tell this generation that they can't dress the way the previous generation did because its immodest or slutty or whatever, you are teaching children to dishonour their parents. I thought that was a major no-no :^P

The source for the Kol Isha restriction (i.e. that a woman not sing live before men) is not from the Five Books of Moses. It has its roots in Shir Hashirim 2:14, as discussed in Gemara Berachot 24a. You can read about it at http://koltorah.org/ravj/The%20Parameters%20of%20Kol%20Isha.htm. Yizhar Hess draws the ludicrous conclusion that strict modesty rules send the message that "a woman is nothing more than a sex symbol and that her sole purpose is to tempt men." Astounding. Readers cannot escape noticing that adjacent to the article is an ad displaying a blond buxom woman in a bright yellow string bikini that barely covers anything -- so who's using women as sex symbols? You would never see such an ad in a Dati publication. I am a highly educated professional with a international reputation in my field. I grew up modern Orthodox, and I don't think I we were sinful. We watched TV, went to movies, and attended social events with boys and girls. And it was fine, no regrets. However, because of the unrestricted freedom of expression that the Left has brought us, I am now compelled to withdraw and restrict my kids' exposure. It has gotten to the point that, when driving, I briefly turn the radio on to hear the traffic and then quickly turn it off, because every few minutes there's an ad for Viagra or some other "bedroom enhancing" substance. Same with TV ads. I don't need my kids listening to that. The contemporary music that my teenage son listens to idolizes premarital sex -- so how can I reasonably expect him to not engage in sexual activity when he's at an activity with teenage girls who proudly display their cleavage? So I'm happier if they don't have mixed events anymore. It's very sad, because there's nothing intrinsically wrong with boys & girls together -- but the alternative is worse. I don't want to be faced with a teen pregnancy or sexually transmitted disease, as has befallen more permissive Orthodox acquaintances. Like it or not, the reality is that many of us have become more "Chareidi" , NOT because we are primitive and fundamentalist, but rather as a RESPONSE to the lax mores prevalent today. Courtesy of Yizhar Hess and her ilk.

The premise of the article is wrong. There are in fact many moderate Orthodox Jews (whether Modern/Centrist Orthodox in the US or dati leumi in Israel). There are many synagogues and Orthodox neighborhoods in Jerusalem and elsewhere in which people do not subscribe to charedi norms of dress and gender separation. Masorti Jews often try to attract people to their movement by claiming that all Orthodox are extremist. That's not true at all. In fact a new organization, Beit Hillel, of moderate dati leumi rabbis has just formed, which gives women leadership positions and promotes more lenient or moderate religious life. If you want to be a religious Jew but not extremist, be modern orthodox. Join the big tent of Orthodoxy, not a tiny sect that has dramatically altered halacha and hashkafa.

I wish the rise in extremist modedty would have at least translated into also being firm and extremist about our land, but that is not the case. Both the ultra orthodox and religious and religious zionists will agree to givin up land if it brings them temporary benefits. Pathetic ghettoish mentality. Also lets bear in mind that the stupid disengagement plan also resulted in the army tacitly agreeing to rabbis espouse extreme modesty views in IDF so as to appease them after the diengagement.

I lived in Jerusalem 1985 and the modesty rules differed. I attended Evelina Rothschild and boys girls on same floor but Seperate classrooms. We met at bnei Akiva after school and sang our hearts out together.Thank God the modern orthodox has not changed here. I watch nearby school where girls must wear long sleeves and boys not. Why? Elbows are sexual ? There is halachic poskim like Azriel Hildesheimer and Solovetchik who say group singing fine and german custom to group sing along with Turkish/Sephardic Jews. Many poskim say that Gemara where we got this non singing rule was meant only when men said shema and got misunderstood.

I am not looking to challenge anyone; I sincerely would like to know: do Conservative/Masorti, Reform Judaism etc, have an official code of law? If so, what is it?

The evolving Orthodox influence seems to look more like the Taliban than the freedom expected of the Jewish religion. Forget about dress. Orthodox conversions in the US are no longer respected by Israeli rabbinate. Tell me again, why does the religious franchise belong solely to the Orthodox? Why do Israelis get married in Cyprus rather than Israel? Why do women in Jerusalem have to sit in the back of the bus? Why can Haredi boys throw stones at cars on Shabbat and not considered as working?

I actually feel sorry for you,which is a new experience for me.Your primitive outlook is sick. I agree with #26...women are supposed to be attractive,not covered head to toe. You must be very young,very old..or gay. If this is what your religion teaches you to believe,I'm glad I'm not exposed to it.

In the States going Shabat to the synagogue is a social event.

Jewish boys had physical relations with non jewish girls,and respected Jewish girls.

explicitely tell them to go against Torah law. Would be nice if secular education had some basic Torah education.

i wish at least they would be as firm in their beliefs when it came to the land of israel. but the ultra orthodox religious and national religious leaders will agree to givinh up the land. Also lets not forget that after the disengagement, the state ( including the army) allowed religious indoctrination of the soldiers regarding kashrut and women singing and the army brass turned a blind eye to these developments so as to appease the very angry and disappointed reliougous nationalists elements.

Oh, I will, absolutely. Do I strike you as someone who hesitates to speak her mind?

What would you know about shuls, anyway? Someone ought to take a VERY close look into your background. You're nothing but a Vatican-apologizing Nazi sympathizing Roman Catholic. You fool no one. Except yourself, of course. Why don't you take a little trip to the Vatican, where you can volunteer to kiss Ratzinger's feet? One anti-Semite to another -- I'm sure he'll LOVE the gesture!

Shut up. Apart from the fact that you have likely never been to the United States, let alone to a shul in the United States, how would you know what happens in my shul? You are a disgrace.

How would you know? Were you there? Kindly enlighten us as to the source of your knowledge. Your comment is pretty disreputable, and I invite you to either back it up, or shut up. Your choice.

Oh, you are going to have to document that one. Sounds straight out of Soviet law to me -- turning in one's parents who are not good Communists. You are disgusting. No wonder you choose to remain nameless.

You are in top form today,well done. I disagree with you on many things,especially the "god" thing,as you no doubt have noticed, but I certainly respect your ability to lash out at those who deserve it. Keep it up.

I am assuming, in my humble opinion, that Anonymous #39 was referring to the explicit Halacha in the Talmud which states that when a parent commands a child to violate a Torah law, the child is forbidden to obey. This is derived through exegesis from the verse in the Torah which mentions Sabbath observance- seemingly incongruously - immediately following honoring parents, to teach that when Sabbath observance is in conflict with obeying ones' parents, the Sabbath trumps.

of the 5th ave.Happy?

it was different. In our town it was like i said.Charles and i are from the same town. If there were exceptions,they only confirm the rule.