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Bereaved mother: Is my son's blood worth less?
Shahar Chai, Ilana Curiel
Published: 06.07.12, 14:53
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1. Are haredi blood worth less than secular draft dodgers
(07.06.12)
Are haredim to be drafted in order to replace those 70% self-proclaimed "elite" draft dodgers from Tel Aviv?
2. your son's blood is worth more
Jacob Erickson ,   Holon, Israel   (07.06.12)
By serving in the army, all who do so are valued more. Those who lost their lives are remembered as heroes of Israel. I wish I had been younger when I moved to this country so I could have been a combat soldier instead of a jobnik, but I still did my time. What are the draft dodgers remembered for? Who sees them as heroes? Nothing and no one. They need to serve in something, not just the army. Give them the option of national service as well. Then they can study torah the rest of their lives.
3. To: No. 1
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.06.12)
The difference is that the Torah is supposed to be a reason, not an excuse. The "elite" draft dodgers of Tel Aviv have no spiritual enlightenment; they are mostly spoiled over-indulged children who have no character. They do not have the benefit of a Jewish education, so they hold nothing dearer or more valuable than their own worthless lives. This is not the case with the haredim, who should know exactly the value of what they are being asked to defend and serve.
4. missed the point
Shalom ,   J town, Israel   (07.06.12)
the hareidim do see themselves as serving the army they believe that there is a need for torah learning as a defense for Israel. i think they would be very happy if someone else was willing to do the torah. but to say they don't feel they should protect the land is absurd. the just feel that part of the defense strategy has to be torah and as 10% of the population they have a full democratic right to make that happen. you will never meet a hareidi who will tell you that someone secular who is learning torah should not be allowed to. find me a secular who wont complain when a hareidi gets a deferment for one of the excuses the tel aviv guys are sooo creative in making up. it is about having another battalion which focuses on the torah aspect of israels defense. the torah to them is the air force to a secular citizen. not as ynet would like to make it seem that hareidim think their blood is sweeter. what racist propaganda!
5. haredi are not draft dodgers
zionist forever   (07.06.12)
A draft dodger is an idealist who the law says must serve but refuses to because of their political ideals. The haredi have a legal right to choose to serve or not so if the law gives them a right to choose then when they refuse they are not breaking any laws. It might seem unfair the haredi do not have to serve but its legal. The army don't want the haredi because they want to save money not go to the extra expense of absorbing thousands of haredi. The only people that the haredi draft means anything to is the secular civilians who don't like haredi and think its not fair haredi have a choice and they don't. Drafting the haredi is not going to bring huge benefits to the country and there is nothing being lost by not having them serve. Fact is this is a totally pointless issue that the secular left promoted for political point scoring. There are much more important issues that the Knesset could have been debating for all this time and if the coalition splinters and forces an election over this issue it really will go to show how pathetic Israeli politics is.
6. I think orthodox military are on par with secular in terms
Miron ,   USA   (07.06.12)
of blood loss. So, that mother is really confused and aggreeved with loss. And that's understandable. It's unfortunate people in distress brought up by press seeking sensation. Sure, it sounds like a good idea to engage orthodox in military draft. And I agree, there is much to be improved, as far as laws concerned. But blaming orthodox for not shedding blood for Israel... hmm... The irony is the commitee Israeli Knesset setup came out with proposal, fairly unapologetic towards orthodox followers, to obligate service with exception numbers meted out to match secular people. And it wasn neither orthodox nor secular who stopped this proposal from coming forward in Knesset for vote. It was Israeli PM who suddenly figured out that he will lose his role of "savior of the nation" if this law is to go forward. So, take a deep breath and stop barking on the wrong tree. It's very simple who is "dodging" here. Bottom line, there is no division on orthodox and secular when service for Israel is concerned. United we stand, divided we fall.
7. Haradi - Arab -Christan-
Yoel ,   Israel   (07.06.12)
Every citizen above the age of 18 must go to the army and serve his country if he wants equal benifits- We are all equal and must take our responsibility seriously.
8. And what about Israeli Arabs and Secular?
JD ,   Bet Shemesh   (07.06.12)
Of course Haredim should serve, but stop singling them out! Everyone must contribute to our state. I a recent speech Uzi Landau, the energy minister spoke about the stats of this past year's draft. Out of all the 18 year olds not drafted, only 8% were Haredi. 50% were Arab, and that leaves 42% for other Jewish israelis. Equal burden mean equal for everyone !
9. #1 you're light years from making that comparison
Avi   (07.06.12)
First serve the state for 3 years, before you get a right to complain about dodgers, not before. Just like everyone else. Or is it too painful for you? To be like everyone else?
10. The Torah never says all religious Jews must avoid service..
Russel ,   Israel   (07.06.12)
the national religious have the same Torah and almost all DO serve.
11. thats right
Shalom ,   J town, Israel   (07.06.12)
nobody says no one should serve . they say people should learn and no one else is willing to do so but them
12. No one is above the law.
Bad Ased Jew ,   United States   (07.06.12)
The laws should be changed so that every citizen of Israel must serve. There are many functions not directly involving front line defense. If they wont serve they should not be paid or exempted from service. As it stands, there's great resentment of those who've lost their loved ones, those who've also been wounded and harmed, how do those not serving hold their heads up knowing they did nothing? If all praying and torah reading Jews were exempt, how many soldiers would there be left? Parasites cannot be absorbed without great disparity to those who pay for the ride of the non paying parasites.
13. In the time of Moses?
Ed Stack   (07.06.12)
Didn't the Torah call for a universal service for all the people of Israel? When did this change? Who changed it?
14. Is it fair
C.M.   (07.06.12)
that the protection of the Land of Israel should fall completely on religious Jews who carry the burden of Torah learning as well as all the other mitzvot in the Torah?
15. Hareidim and recognition
Maurice Solovitz ,   London England   (07.06.12)
Shalom says that there is a need for torah learning. All learning is by choice and not by not obligation. The competition between different kinds of ultra-orthodox communities is by degree, anti secular in that again, by degree, it refuses to recognise the legitimacy of the secular community. The essense of nationhood is that even when we disagree with each other we respect each other. Without it the nation is heading for civil war. This is why a universal draft must be implemented ASAP
16. #3 The Talmud in Psachim 50b states:
C.M.   (07.06.12)
Mitoch shelo lishma ba lishma, which means, if you begin doing something good for ulterior motives, you will end up doing good for its own sake.
17. #13 Bigger question. How is it
C.M.   (07.06.12)
that In the time of Moshe all Jews were religious and kept every single law of the Torah and today there are Jews who keep nothing? isn't it shameful that Jews living in G-d's land have the chutzpah to throw His Torah back into His face and tell Him that aside from settling the land they're not interested in anything else He mentioned in the Torah?
18. I aree all must serve.......BUT
Yerach ,   Jerusalem,Israel   (07.06.12)
If you expect either Dati Leumi or Chareidi to serve do not make them violate halacha like forcing them to to listen to women singing,singing women is not a necessity & if this is against their beliefs they should be exempt. Also all units which they serve the food must be 100 % kosher. Last but not least they should not be asked to throw Jews out of their homes. If these obstacles can be overcome with ironclad guarantees of such & all must serve.
19. No, not all Hareidi Guys use Torah as an excuse to get out.
Riva ,   Betar Ilite   (07.06.12)
I am a Hareidi mom. two of my three sons have served in the IDF, one was a commando who carried out extremely dangerous missions while in the Nachal Hareidi. The youngest son is completely dedicated to learning Gemora, has finished Shas at age 18 and really wants to sit and learn instead of going into the army. He wants to develop himself to an extremely high level of scholarship and serve as a Rov with specialities in Jewish law. He learns so for many hours of each day, late into the night. He believes that his learning will also protect the Jewish people as we do learn from Torah. Let's be reasonable, there IS a need to have some men continue in learning because it is an integral part of our survival as a people (which is tied in with Judiasm). And, with regard to the need for top notch, dedicated scholars, this is also the case for every religion and culture. Yet, some guys are not cut out for learning, and some not even cut out for the IDF as my commander/commando son can attest. The problem is that forcing every guy to serve might hurt the guy who really deserves to sit and learn (sort of as a representative of the Jewish people), while putting an idiot in the army because he must be drafted. so, we have to be careful not to misjudge our people!
20. I understand where the Haredi are coming from
Sarah B (No not her)   (07.06.12)
As Israel is a manmade project which was born in the United Nations, and not a product of God. It is their core religious belief that they need not die for an artificial state. Those who send their sons and daughters to die on the Haredi's behalf are been sold a sucker punch. If they want to be sponsored to study in a Yeshiva then like our children who wish to go to university they should be compelled to serve three years in the military. No service, no freebee in the Yeshiva
21. to no17 Oh! Were you there in time of Moses?
exUK ,   TEl Aviv   (07.06.12)
There are secular ,religious and all shades and degrees in between. As a secular person,I believe as follows.1) Most or all of our laws were man made,and the original purpose was to keep everyone together in the wilderness with Moses,who was having a hard time leading Jews who had 3 opinions for every 2 people. 2) In our modern world,I believe that the purpose of celebrating Shabbat together is to keep the family together.That is the real purpose.Of course if some of us wish to dress and behave according to the way we lived hundreds of years ago,it is fine,so long as they dont expect others to support them financially. 3) I believe that to be a good person you dont have to be religious.There are good and bad at each extreme of society. 4) I believe that one law will cover EVERYcommandment .That law is 'TREAT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WISH TO BE TREATED"
22. Stop the checks!
Rachel ,   US   (07.06.12)
Even is the Haredim don't serve in IDF, they should join the workforce and pay their own way!
23. Losing sight.
CM ,   Israel   (07.06.12)
When you stray from who and what you are you lose sight of why we are. The biggest fear of a commander is having to tell someone's loved ones that there precious child is no more. Scattered around Israel's military cemeteries are 27 graves of members of my family dating back to 1938. Our family has sacrificed for the sanctity of our nation and people, I am an ex commander and served our nation for over 20 years as a combat commander not once did it ever cross neither my mind or that of my soldiers that the religious who study Torah effect our military in a negative light infact the exact opposite. For all the bereaved families we feel for you but those that study Torah are not responsible for your loss. They are the ones that spiritually comfort you in your time of grief and bring hope and strength to all. The real issue is those that should serve but don’t, those that fraudulently get out of serving and an inept system that allows them to do so. Now when you look at the bigger picture the religious don’t make up a sizable number as the overwhelming majority that do study Torah do it for the right reason. It pains me every day to see what is happening to our society and the pure propaganda that spreads from and through the media, our society is worse of not as a result of Torah study but as a result of the lack of Torah study and discarding our belief system.
24. #17 C.M.
Sarah B (No not her)   (07.06.12)
Studying the Torah should not mean that you can avoid serving the land of Israel, and by inference the people of Israel This is the 21st century not the 1st century
25. the practical solution
mea   (07.06.12)
It is easy: Haredi may choose: 1.) Enlist and serve, then receive benefits to study. or: 2.) Study and forever be without subsidies--all of them: No tax breaks, no discounted housing, no welfare of any kind. Watch how many decide to go for the three years in ore to get the subsidy. In the US, for many years a typical question asked of job applicants was, "Are you a vet?"
26. Defer service? Then defer voting, welfare, university entry!
Dr. L. Brnd ,   San Diego, USA   (07.06.12)
The simple and fair answer to those who want to "defer" IDF or national service is for the state to "defer" voting eligibility, the right to hold public office, state jobs, welfare payments and admission to state colleges and universities until IDF or national service is completed. Not only for haredim, but also for Arabs. No Israeli university should admit students who are less than three years from their high school graduation day, for any reason, out of consideration for those who serve 3 years in the IDF.
27. Individual Sanctions
Bill ,   New York, USA   (07.06.12)
I've said it before, but this should be a simple issue to deal with. For those not participating in some form of service: 1. First, they lose eligibility for social benefits. 2. Second, they have to pay a significantly higher tax rate (borrowing from Islamic history) 3. Third, if they have not paid their liability, the state may seize assets to pay the liability. All the other stuff (excusing haredi units from places and events where women sing, halal food for Muslim enlistees etc) should not be that hard to implement.
28. To Bereaved mother: "Other son's prayers worth less?"
rebecca ,   Modiin   (07.06.12)
Both answers are no.
29. Hypocrites!
EVgeny ,   Israel   (07.06.12)
There are charedim who serve in the army and there many (more than a half) seculars who dodge the draft. What about the Arabs? They go to the universities and the charedim do not... The only solution is professional army like in the normal Western countries. Only those who want - go to the army and get paid for this. Stop the vicious incitement against the Torah Jews!
30. @2
pini ,   israeli   (07.06.12)
i agree. how old were u? i moved here recently and im 26 and im enlisting in combat.
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