Opinion
The circumcision battle
Manfred Gerstenfeld
Published: 24.07.12, 22:13
Comment Comment
Print comment Print comment
Back to article
67 Talkbacks for this article
1. The more things change ...
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.24.12)
... the more they stay the same. Banning circumcision is tantamount to banning Judaism. It is after all, the Jewish covenant with G-d. I don't know enough about IsIamic practice concerning circumcision, but it cannot be a particularly pleasant experience for a four year old. I guess Europeans are just determined to be Europeans -- and we already know where that determination has led. It also begs the question: why aren't the Europeans in the forefront of decrying the practice of female circumcision? You can bet it's a pretty common practice among the Arab, Moslem and certain African communities in Europe. No matter how few Jews are left in Europe, it would appear that persecution of the Jewish people is still a favorite pastime for the Europeans. What a disgraceful bunch of racist hypocrites!
2. why don't Germans love Muslims and Jews
(07.24.12)
why do Germans keep trying to make everybody live under the same set of laws? People should make their own laws...the govt has no right to make the law.
3. #1
Larry   (07.24.12)
FGM has been banned in Europe for over a decade and Europeans did take the lead in getting it banned. Male circumcision will be next. The Europeans are being a light unto the nations on this issue.
4. The Battle for Children's Rights
Eran Sadeh ,   Tuval   (07.24.12)
This is the correct title for this story. The world is beginning to recognize the simple fact that cutting off body parts of helpless babies is an assault and a violation of their fundamental human right to bodily integrity.
5. Paradox....
Josh ,   Wellington   (07.25.12)
"circumcision negatively affects proper sexual functioning" I guess this why Muslim and Jews have 10 kids +- while opponents have 1.2 kids on average after years of fertilty treatment. G-d the number of Shiksas to whom I spread my DNA around in the first year in NZ alone.... What would have been the number without circumcision? I say no more...
6. And what will be the fate of the already circumcized men ?
justin case ,   Rio de Janeiro   (07.24.12)
7. Religions need to change as we're marching forward.
Michael ,   California, USA   (07.25.12)
Judaism and Islam cannot remain mutilators of the human body. Medicine is marching forward and we know much more today than when circumcision was established. And doctors tell us circumcision is not recommended. When circumcision was established, it was a means for enslaving Jewish males. This doesn't work and Jewish males are free to do whatever they desire, marry whatever faith they want. But they do not have the ability to express their will when they are 8 days old. It's time to abandon circumcision and move forward. As #4 put it "human right to bodily integrity" is an elemental right, an indisputable right.
8. #4 No. The title is "Individual secularism above all."
Roman ,   Lod, Israel   (07.25.12)
Circumcision is an integral part of Judaism. It is also, unlike FGM, not permanent harm to an integral part of the human body - unless you consider a small bit of skin to be just that. In terms of cost versus gain, some German judges just banned Orthodox Judaism if anyone actually uses their judicial precedent in any subsequent ruling. The "fundamental human right" you quote? You're stretching it. To the point where it just becomes a Secular Humanist belief system that you're forcing on others who don't share your entire belief system. Welcome to coercion, by the way. You're it.
9. #2: I suggest you read the first pages of
Israeli 2   (07.24.12)
"Undermining the Torah Matrix."
10. A good article by Manfred Gerstenfeld
(07.24.12)
There's always a first time...
11. To: No. 3
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (07.25.12)
If you think that FGM has come to an end because it has been banned, then you are indeed deluded. It is banned in the United States -- yet nearly 4,000 cases are reported annually. Go figure. Do you really think these monsters care about the law? If you are uncircumcised, all I can say is that I hope you never get cancer of the penis. That's an ailment that strikes exclusively uncircumcised men. "Light unto the nations," indeed. I hope you make a good counter-tenor or soprano.
12.  Muslim/ Christianity displacement forces a show down ?
Roland Seener ,   London England   (07.25.12)
13. #5 ''shiksas''
Mary ,   NZ   (07.25.12)
Josh, I hope that after you have been in NZ a little longer you will stop using words like ''shiksas''. We don't want that sort of language in NZ. Thankyou.
14. As if Jewish men without foreskins can't function...
Scott ,   USA   (07.25.12)
On the other hand, there are always nebishes like Woody Allen. But I don't think that brit milah causes that condition.
15. To all commentators
Harold ,   USA   (07.25.12)
Was G-d wrong not creating circumcised male and now some wants to correct His mistake. My three boys, their boys and I are not circumcised and we all are healthy. It is completely not true that male becomes healthier after circumcision.
16. no, muslims suffer the collateral damage
rick ,   walnut creek   (07.25.12)
the european hatred for the Jews is much more profound and vicious than the hatred of the muslims. in fact, in many cases, the europeans, believing in nothing, are eager to assume a supine position in the face of muslim demands and impositions. but, the self-righteous but morally ennervated haters of europe, red, black and green, can always summon bile enough to attack Israel and/or the Jews. in europe, the Jews are always "in season." the jihadists can hold a sword to their necks and, still, the europeans will only denounce the Jews.
17. Circumcision should
(07.25.12)
not be banned in Germany at this point of time. It's likely that most Jews and Muslims wouldn't respect such a law anyway; boys wouldn't be circumcised in medical centres any more, but in some back rooms by god-knows-who, and this is of course not in the child's and therefore not in the constitutional court's interest. A thousands of years long lasting tradition won't disappear within a short time. But at the beginning of the 21st century a secular country must be able to open the discussion; although verbal disarmament on both sides is necessary.
18. Humanists
Zivron   (07.25.12)
Humanists are far from Romans with their blood sports it's a ridiculous analogy. Circumsion like Ritual Slaughter ought be more humane I believe circs where simpler eons ago and if animals are stunned the Religious in the more humanitarian mould ought bring clever leniancies like selling the land every seven years to non Jews and the Chametz selling not to mention not washing clothes during av by wearing them for a few minutes in Tammuz
19. Thanks Mary for your kind advice
Josh ,   Wellington   (07.25.12)
To my credit I would say that I've only learned the word " Shiksa" in NZ. This is not a common expression in the Sephardi world.
20. # 13 Mary
(07.25.12)
"Shiksa" is simply the Yiddish word for a non-Jewish female. It carries no connotation beyond that. But, like many other words, perhaps sometimes the intent behind its use can appear to be problematic, and at other times it's totally innocuous.
21. #11 What monsters...do you mean the mohels?
(07.25.12)
the mohels are not monsters really. Everybody has to make a living somehow,
22. #5 Josh !!
Ben ,   Australia   (07.25.12)
when you take up residence in a tiny nation like NZ its really bad manners to refer to your fellow kiwis as ''shiksas''. Maybe you are American or Israeli and don't realise how much offence kiwis will take to such an attitude. That is a real deal breaker mate. Way too rude.
23. response to #7
Ron from NJ ,   Newark, NJ   (07.25.12)
Michael writes that "When circumcision was established, it was a means for enslaving Jewish males." This is utter nonsense -- what is your source? The source for circumcision is Genesis, which describes how Abraham willingly consented to circumcision, and was later commanded to perform it on his male descendants on the 8th day of life. It has nothing at all to do with external subjugation or medical necessity. When doctors say that "circumcision is not recommended," they are merely saying that there are no proven medical benefits to the procedure; they are NOT are saying that it's unhealthy or a bad idea.
24. Not circumcision is banned...
John ,   Germany   (07.25.12)
Circumcision is not banned in Germany, just forcing circumcision on someone else is banned. As soon as a person can legally make his own decisions they can get circumcised.
25. #5, paradox is thinking that fertility is connected to sexua
rahel ,   galut   (07.25.12)
fertility / conception has nothing to do with sexual satisfaction and quality of sexual life. Ejaculation is NOT male orgasm, and woman can birth 10 kids and never have orgasm or even mildly enjoying conceiving them
26. #5 Josh - Another thing
Devorah   (07.25.12)
Congratulations, but don't go bragging about how many women were the recipients of your DNA. It makes you look like a slut.
27. #7- you are clearly showing your ignorance
Laura ,   Jerusalem Israel   (07.25.12)
fortunately for those that know better, you, as a human being, have a limited amount of time on this earth. The Jewish faith has been around over 5700 years and will continue for eternity..Gd commanded a 'brit mila" a covenant with Jewish males...it will certainly continue way past your time here..
28. Jewish schools in England
Joseph ,   London UK   (07.25.12)
The case referred to at the Jewish Free School involved accepting a Conservative conversion to attend a mainstream Orthodox school. The lower court accepted the right to reject Conservative converts, but the Supreme Court ruled 5 to 4 that the boy should be accepted because he is observant and lives with his Jewish father, not his mother who reverted to being Catholic.. In practice the ruling has not made much difference. It's no threat to Jewish life here!
29. Help Muslims raise standards
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (07.25.12)
All the problems with 'ritual slaughter' in the UK involved halal, not kosher. Problems with circumcision in Europe have involved mainly Muslims, not Jews. We Jews should help our local Muslim communities raise standards in Halal and Muslim circumcision. We would both be better off.
30. 'proper sexual functioning'
Joe ,   Baltimore, USA   (07.25.12)
Jewish males have been circumcized for about 4,000 years and we're still properly sexually functioning. In my generation almost all American boys were circumcized and we are still properly sexually functioning. How many males were studied in the Danish research?
Next talkbacks
Back to article