Leaving Geert Wilders aside for now, does anyone think slitting the throat of a living animal is more humane than stunning the animal first?

How about he just vote according to his conscience? Why does he have to be a perfect friend or a perfect enemy of the Jews? That notwithstanding, why anybody in Europe cares enough about this issue to makes, I do not understand. We're _killing_ animals to _eat_ them for goodness sake. And we're so concerned about the exact method of how we kill them that we spend immeasurable resources discussing the issue and making laws about it? Good grief, we need a good old fashioned world war to get back to reality.

that they can dance on two horses at the same time,like in a circus,and get away with it.

1. Pulling out in the last minute from talks about the financial crisis and make the governement collapse. 2. Support for ritual slaughter. Pity, for he is right in many of his points of vue, but not in his timing & choice of people. Had he not made the (1) mistake, he could have become the biggest party in the next elections. This mistake will cost him and his party many seats and it's the ideal excuse for the other parties to distance themselves from him as an eventual coalition partner.

... may have had some hygenic reasons in the past. These days it is just cruelty. It has nothing to do with antisemitism; it is the common sense: to spare living creature from unnecessary suffering.

The problem with people like Wilders and other populists is that they don't really have any core values; they only say and do what is popular for the moment in order to maximize the number of votes. Many of the so called "anti-Islamic" politicians in Europe completely stopped this kind of rhetorics when the financial crisis hit. Then suddenly the unemployed migrants that came from southern Europe were the main target. That these Spaniards, Greeks, Italians and Portuguese were Christians didn't matter very much. Religion suddenly wasn't that important to Wilders and his buddies.

For all I know Geert Wilders might be a (secret) flaming anti-Semite. Wilders does not claim to be a religious man or a Christian. He self-identifies as a humanist.

First of all, the people here are mostly jews so they are "offended" when Dutch (not a muslim or jewish country) is banning it. Try to understand the reason, try to understand also that they have the rights to abolish ritual slaughter and prefer to makes the animals sleep first then kills it. Dutch is not a muslim or a jewish country.

I will ask you, how can anyone think that "stunning" is more humane than skilled slitting of the throat? The only way you can get to this conclusion is because you don't know anything about either method. The answer is that slitting the throat is far more humane.

Causes the animal to black out instantly whereas the stunning causes intense pain before black out. I don't remember where I read this though. All that aside, though, I've no desire to visit a country where I can't have a delicious kasher steak.

Have you? I watched the video of the savages slitting the throat of Nick Berg in Iraq. I watched them ritually slaughter Daniel Pearl (what they showed of it). I have watched the ritual slaughter of cattle. Let me ask you a question. If you had your choice, how would you choose to be slaughtered? Would you choose to have your throat cut open fully conscious or would you choose to be rendered unconscious first by a stunbolt gun? Please be honest.

Ritual slaughter of animals aside Wilders is still the strongest supporter of the state of Israel in the whole of the EU, something that the writer of this article is not. He assumes that Wilder will lose support because of his (this writer) claim that Wilders' is against ritual animal slaughter..where is the evidence? If I had to pick Wilders' support of Israel and his alleged anti-ritual slaughter stance I would pick his support for Israel hands down.

nummero 2: can it be, tht U are simply the other side of the janus-faced Gershvelt ?

I think that slitting the jugular vein and carotid artery of an animal with an extremely sharp knife causes death instantaneously. I also think that stunning an animal with a massive electrical shock and then sawing its throat is probably less than instantaneous. Draw your own conclusions.

Muslim decapitation of infidels is done to maximize sufferering and includes sawing. Jewish and Samaritan slaughterers are highly-trained to minimize suffering, although I would support extra training and licensing to make sure. I have heard that Muslim slaughterers are often unskilled and hurt the animal, but I do not know if this is true or just a nasty rumor. As for what you call "stunning". I can go graphic on you and tell you the reality of "stunning", but will spare other readers. Let's just say that in the best case anywhere between 20% and 50% of stunning fails. Now tell me: what do you prefer, to slowly fade away with a quick cut to the throat? Or to get hit in the head with a claw hammer two or three times first?

I always wonder why people like Wilders are unfairly labeled "populists". I guess it is because even the Left which has strangely enough subscribed to full blown multiculturalism (dumping pluralism on the way) find it difficult to call people who are in favor of human rights, and insists on equal rights for women, gays, as well well as freedom not only of religion, neocons or fascists. I think Wilders is factually wrong (it is estimated that in about 20% of cases stunning is not effective enough to assure subsequent pain- free cutting of the animals by the automatic processing blades of slaughterhouses, while bleeding was the preferred Roman suicide method - and for a reason!). But Wilders is certainly true to his convictions and does not shy away from antagonizing his friends and allies. He is therefore the opposite of a populists!

Jews, and religious Jews especially, need to get this one thing into their head: They won't get everything they want, for two reasons. 1. It's impossible. 2. They don't deserve it. The only solution is compromise. You're being welcomed with smiles and extended hands? Say thank you and demand nothing. You are a guest. You already have a nation and you can make your own laws there (yes, we all know when the religious make the laws the country will go to complete utter shit). No one should be asking you to stay, but Mr. Wilders and his people are. Why must you dictate the policies of a country that is not even yours? You claim to be Zionists? Then advocate the nationalism of other nations. Stop pulling the "Anti-Semite!" card when you have nothing intelligent to say. This is EXACTLY the reason why Israel has so little friends- she alienates all of her allies.

A real Zionist would live in Israel. Nothing is impossible. As to 'deserving', when the shit hits you personally, don't cry it's antisemitism, just say thank you and demand nothing, you are a guest where you live.

That's what I say ; If someone allowed you to stay under his/her roof don't rearrange his/her furniture and impose your customs if you don't want to search for another place to rest ,...

The Jews are not imposing their customs on anyone. They are not asking the Dutch people to eat kosher. They just want to eat kosher themselves. The Jews are not anyone's guests in Holland. They are full citizens with all the rights of citizens. By the way, I'm not Jewish

Funny how people like you love to say "Look at these civilized countries, protecting freedom of religion" - but when the religious exercise their religion, you try to stop them. It's quite simple, the only religion you actually respect is socialist humanism. As far as what's more humane - IT DOESN'T MATTER! For the religious, the ritual slaughter is a command from G-d. He didn't say "do it however some non-religious, self-absorbed tree hugger tells you to do it". He said to do it His way AND THAT'S FINAL! If you can't let Jews do it the way they were commanded, then stop espousing how advanced you are in letting people exercise their religion and just tell the truth - that you're a bunch of anti-religous thugs who want to make everyone conform to your humanist religion.

I'm a believer too, but not the crap you're trying to impose on me and my loved ones. I don't need any rebbe or priest as middleman in my relation with with my creator, guided by their contradicting fairy tales to tell me how to appreciate Him and His creation - Get a life, pal ,...

It's not so hard and healthier.

If Geert Wilders were a "flaming anti-Semite,” would he have sacrificed part of his own popularity to demand that the Dutch government acknowledge and apologise for its role in the Shoah? The Dutch government is one of the only governments in Western Europe that still refuses to acknowledge their role in the Shoah, and Wilders was harshly punished by Dutch society for demanding the apology. The Dutch media slammed him for it and Wilders lost somewhere around six seats in the polls (temporarily). Sensing weakness, the media only became more aggressive in attacking Wilders on the subject, but Wilders didn't back down and persisted in demanding that the Dutch government join the rest of Western Europe in apologising for its role in the Shoah, in spite of the loss to his own support this caused him. This example comes to mind, because it was a book written by Manfred Gerstenfeld, also the author of this Op-ed, which inspired Wilders to take a stand on the issue, but there are several other cases of Wilders sacrificing his own popularity and defying the Dutch elite to support Israel as well as fight anti-Semitism more generally.

The problems facing the Jewish community in the Netherlands and the rest of Europe is a bit larger then if one can eat meat or not.From a animal rights perspective a well as a anti-Islamic measure (500,000 animals slaughtered ritually in halal fashion of which 12000 are Jewish fashion) It's a good measure to make life more uncomfortable for Muslims in the Netherlands and that takes priority over your desire for Kosher meat.Become vegetarian if you care so much about it.Most Dutch Jews probably don't even eat Kosher meat because they are secular.

LOL :) ,... There're no pro-Israel groups in Netherlands and more than a half of the 5000 Jews there are assimilated that leaves you with around 2500 Jews and just a half of them with a voting rights out of 17 million.

The irony was lost on you, obviously.

I am a Dutchman. I do not know how important ritual slaughter is to the Jews. But I do know that PVV is not anti-semitic. They oppose the ritual slaughter of animals on animal-welfare grounds. Many people in the Netherlands care deeply about animal welfare. You can always discuss what is more important: ritual slaughter or animal welfare. You can also always discuss what is more humane: ritual slaughter or stunned slaughter. But what you cannot do is accusing PVV of anti-semitism. That is a ridiculous accusation. The PVV is one of the most staunch supporters of Israel and of the Jews. If anything, the initiative could be seen as anti-Islam, as the discussion in the Netherlands in past years was more about muslims ritually slaughtering. But as far as I can tell, the main motive for Dion Graus, and for the PVV, has been animal welfare. I am sorry, but in my perpsective Mr. Gerstenfeld is too willing to see anti-semitism in instances where this is not the case. It is a word best used sparingly.