Religious Zionism's struggle
Yoaz Hendel
Published: 26.12.12, 20:01
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28 Talkbacks for this article
1. Yoaz, tell the truth
israel israeli ,   tel aviv   (12.26.12)
Imagine if you were given the order to "evacuate" an Arab family from their home, maybe in Lod, maybe in Kfar Kassem, maybe in Shchem. Would you follow that order or would you refuse? We know that you would refuse, so stop criticising Bennett.
2. moderate Judaism is not religious?
Larry ,   Los Angeles   (12.26.12)
I think the author should re-think his basic premise that it is impossible to be a religious zionist and to be moderate. The real problem is to be a leftist and be accepting of others. Liberalism has changed from being accepting of all to being radicals who do not accept others such as religious zionists.
3. As an Israeli Jew, i would rather live
Israel Israeli 2   (12.26.12)
with moderate Arabs as neighbors than with those zealots Jews.
4. The tragedy of religious zionism
Avraham Moshe ,   Boro Park circa 1966   (12.26.12)
Until the rise of Gush Emunim and the cult of Rav Kooks legacy, religious Zionism was a touchstone of Jewish ethics and morality within Israel. It stood for inclusion, political moderation and peace. Like the students of Rabbi Akiva too many of it's adherents were eventually blinded by a warped hatefilled messianism. When people ask me what kind of Jew am I, I reply I am an orphan.
5. Jacob would side with Naftali Bennett
Steve Klein   (12.26.12)
God told Jacob He would make of him "a company of peoples, and will give this land to (his) descendants after (him) for an everlasting possession." I find it unfathomable that anyone would think Jacob would be on this side of those who support uprooting Jews from the land of Israel.
6. Naphtali Bennett
Mitchell Cohen ,   Gush Etzion, Israel   (12.26.12)
Naphtali Bennett did NOT call for disobeying orders. He said that he, PERSONALLY, would have a moral issue with kicking people (Jew or Arab) out of their homes, would ask his commander permission to be exempt from carrying out such an order, and if not given permission, would be willing to sit in jail for not carrying it out. He outright said, "I am NOT calling for disobeying orders". There is a difference between somebody saying they would have an issue on a personal level with an order versus somebody calling on soldiers to GLOBALLY disobey an order. Surely the media and all the politicians twisting Bennett's words are intelligent enough to understand this. Of course, the leftist media predictably has it in for anybody whose views don't jive with theirs and the Likud is getting nervous by Bennett's constant rise in mandates.
7. on mistakes
Ilana   (12.26.12)
WHat is a mistake? Something you don't agree with? A honest opinion that someone expressed despite the issue of being politically correct? I dont think it was a mistake at all. It was thought out, well worded, explained and intended. I dont think it was a mistake. I am secular and I agree with his view.
8. such a poorly written article
jshar   (12.27.12)
and the analogy of the two boys, who must divorce, comparing them to yaakov and esav...so completely retarded and far off base. yoaz, if this is not your main gig, don't quit your day job. if it is, find another occupation. Your ability to digest political events is severely impaired.
9. women singing
avi ,   nyc   (12.27.12)
is a halachic issue not a moderate issue. even liberal religious Jews (all five of them ) know this
David ,   New York, NY   (12.27.12)
The bizarre logic of the op-ed which first posits that "Religious Zionism" and "Secular Zionism" don't exist anymore and then provides vivid examples of how they Do exist does not obscure the fact that "Religious Zionism," by its' willful desire and partial success in imposing its' unwanted will on "Secular Zionists," will ultimately destroy the Nation of Israel. How? Because a huge majorityof Israelis will not tolerate these conditions and will simply find ANOTHER PART OF THE WORLD IN WHICH TO LIVE. Thus, ironically and tragically, the Jewish religion will have destroyed the Jewish state. Consider the damage in so many ways that they have already done. and make some forward-looking calculations.
11. Yoaz, please apologize to Eichmann
Adam ,   NYC   (12.27.12)
He was only following orders. And by your arguement fulfilled his duty as a soldier and was surely wrongfully executed by Israel.
12. Men who do not want to listen to women sing
Paul ,   P.T.   (12.27.12)
should not be in this army. They don't belong there. The IDF is geared for "moderate" Jews who don't care to be mixed men with women.
13. Secular Jews wants religious Jews to be secular
Mordechai   (12.27.12)
Not exactly news a non religious Jew would like religious Jews to be non religious. Thats always been a goal of radical secular zionists. Normal people who aren't into coercing other people understand that what type of singer a person listens to is their own business. If a soldier doesn't want to listen to the commanders girlfriend sing its his right. Just as we would object if religious commanders ordered soldiers to go to shul and listen to a Talmud lecture we should object to secular commanders ordering soldiers to go to concerts. Lets leave the military the responsibility of war and leave entertainment to each and every individual. Israelis need to learn to mind their own business and stop trying to use the military and government to change private behavior.
14. Damn Hyporcates
Paul ,   Jerualem   (12.27.12)
This Stinky attitude is why rational, people of Faith won't go near the army. It is nothing but a culture of forced immorality, just like the government has forced co-existence with Arabs down our throat, all in the name of the 'greater good', really the 'greater hell'. Defending my family and my people is what the objective is, why is listening to woman such an obsession with the deranged secular?
15. What is being religious mean?
Norman Gellman ,   Rehovot   (12.27.12)
Being irreligious means adhering to set of rules set out in Halacha and based on the 16th century "Shlchan Aruch" with some reference to Torah passages and subsequent rulings of latter rabbis in an attempt to deal with new real world contingencies. It is a shame that the ultra-orthodox do not realize that all their rules supposedly based on the Torah are man made interpolations based on the mores and the knowledge of the time they were propagated. Particularly in the case of women there is no actual Torah commandments calling for the bans the orthodox place on women. It is high time that the majority of the Jewish religion update these and other outdated restrictions to be consistent with life and reality in the 21st century.
16. Many Israeli's will not agree with Hendel
Zev ,   Israel   (12.27.12)
Just look how Bayit Hayehudi has been going up in the polls.
17. To # 2 Religious Zionism has changed!
Stan ,   Israel   (12.27.12)
Larry let me put it to you this way. 40 years ago the society I admired most in Israel, were the members of the religious kibbutzim. Those people have stayed the same, but their children and even more so their grandchildren, have become extremists, both in religion and in ideology. This is what Yoaz is telling you. LIBERALISM HAS NOT CHANGED.
18. To # 10 I have the perfect solution
Stan ,   Israel   (12.27.12)
Let's go back to "the good old days" when there were 2 separate Jewish States. ISRAEL and JUDEA.
19. To # 16
Stan ,   Israel   (12.27.12)
Many more Israelis WILL agree with Hendel
20. women signing
ARIE ,   SANTIAGO, CHILE   (12.27.12)
It´s true that women signing is a hallachic issue, but there are more moderate aproaches (Rabbi Bigman for instances allows to hear women signing when it isn´t of a sexual nature, Rav Yechiel Yacov Weinberg allows mixed women signing in the context of zemirot shabat). The norma has been to follow the charedim wich is exterme and stupid
21. two boys in the process of a divorce?
Akiva ,   NYC   (12.27.12)
Is this really the image you wanted to create? Comparing two directions in religious Zionism to two boys married and now wanting a divorce? Your imagery borders on an abomination.
22. Number 9. Women singing
Akiva ,   NYC   (12.27.12)
You forgot me when you said there were only five liberal religious Jews. Actually there are six of us!
23. This bloc concerns you "more than extremists of the left"?
Raymond in DC ,   Washington, USA   (12.27.12)
Let's consider what "extremists of the left" have been engaged in: They've advocated that people not serve "in the territories" or not at all. They've advocated for the boycotting of Israel, it's institutions or its goods. They've advocated for ethnic cleansing, but only of Jews, even from property they own. They've shouted down the public speech of people they don't agree with. They've stood in solidarity with the enemies of their own people. They've been complicit in subverting the Rule of Law and equality before the Law as long as it advances their agenda. How are these actions by the extremists of the left of lesser concern?
24. unity instead of separation
Zsolt ,   Wanganui,NZ   (12.28.12)
I do not think it is helpful that the article tries to concentrate on differences and separation, trying to divide the Israeli society into camps. Israel's only hope for a peaceful and prosperous future depends on a solid national unity, the media and public opinion influencing people should concentrate on what is uniting us instead of what is separating us. It is the common points we need to build on above the differences and rejection.
25. Unity
Cher Calusa ,   Chico CA, USA   (12.28.12)
I too do not see the wisdom in pointing out differences among us. People are too much aware of differences and that is the bulk of our problems. Let's expand on that which unites us instead.
26. Religious Zionism's struggle
George Weiss ,   Teaneck, USA   (12.28.12)
Did the writer ever consider that the orders to throw people out of their homes is the problem? I think his reaction would be far different if Arabs were the ones expelled. What if the government decided that all Israeli Arabs need to be expelled to either one of their states, eorope or America? Would he think it was wrong for soldiers that had to carry out this order not to obey? Of course, the answer is that he would tell the soldiers that the orders are illegal.
27. Give me unity, or give me death
Elliot ,   Los Angeles, USA   (12.28.12)
The title is not a request like that of 18th century American patriot Patrick Henry for liberty, but a statement of Israeli and larger Jewish reality. A survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto revolt remembers, while escaping the German soldiers overhead through the sewers, a Bundist and Zionist decided that the most important thing at the moment was a shouting match on ideology. The man recalling told them both to shut up -- his "foolish" priority being to avoid being discovered by the Germans, who would certainly resolve the debate. We do not wish Hamas or Iran to solve this debate either. So try unity --above just knee jerk reaction to common existential threat. Love above hate, instead of hate above love -- let light excel darkness for once. Be responsible and guarantee each other, and get some mutual respect of lesser differences (and EVERYTHING the article discusses is small compare to unity). If the secular and religious, etc., are given their personal/communal space rather than feeling it threatened by such articles -- they will be part of the greater unity. BTW, some parting advice: 1 - Whatever your politics, most Israelis won't be voting Ba'athist this election and Asad's not running. So "obedience" is not a good term despite the valid needs of democratic authority in nonreligious, non-personal, and non-communal matters. 2 - Its needlessly divisive to use the Esau & Jacob analogy (and a particularly foolish one as all know that Esau was the "secular" one in the story). Worse, in a world of such slander, one must expect the accusation that the Palestinians are the new "Jews," and Israelis the new "Nazis." What goes around, comes around (and amplified to clarify the irony). 3 - As to listening to a woman singing and such, I wouldn't use the army to break religious principle unless you want to convince the Hesder Yeshiva guys that the Haredi are correct. This also leaves bad taste in the mouth, reminding people of the purpose of Czarist conscription of Jewish boys in 19th century Russia.
28. am shalem is the only answer
alan ashkenazie ,   nyc ny   (12.30.12)
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