Opinion
Not your suckers anymore
Izhar Oplatka
Published: 03.02.13, 11:13
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76 Talkbacks for this article
1. SETTLE DOWN ALREADY!!!!
Vlad   (02.03.13)
The IDF has compromised with the rabbis, and the Haredim will go to the army. They will serve in religious units, no women will inspect them, etc. Some 8,000 will serve every year. And by the way, the Haredim are also integrating into the workforce. Some 50% of women and 40% of men already work, and the trend is growing. Now calm down. The situation is resolving itself. No need for inflammatory rhetoric.
2. Civil war.
Young Fella. ,   Jerusalem, Israel   (02.03.13)
Just what do these crazies have that would enable them fight back against whats being offered to them.And PLEASE dont tell me its the gods in the sky.
3. Flexibility v's Immovability.Where to, Israel ?
Roland Seener ,   London England   (02.03.13)
4. A wiev from a so called Christian Goy.
Arn. ,   Sweden.   (02.03.13)
I cant understand why as according to Religious belief and the Word of HASHEM in the Torah, one can abstain from the Military plight therein ?., In the NT Chistianity it is also written - " The One that doesnt Work shall not Eat "!. I am ashamed before You as a Christian, since my faith also is grounded in the GOD of Israel and HIS Messiah. Arn.Sweden.
5. Right sentiment but wrong approach
David ,   Shiloh Israel   (02.03.13)
While, I agree with the main content in this article, I disagree with remarks suggesting even remotely, that civil war is a by product of failure to achieve goals set in this post. The author is unclear as to whom will provoke such an act, which leads one to believe that the actual article itself is the vehicle of igniting such a horrific outcome. Another concern is the liberal use of 'Haredi' when its widely known that much of the anti-Israeli sentiment comes from sects that are 'outlawed' by much of the Haredi community. Personally, I'm in favor of stripping citizenship from such 5th columists, while having a common sense approach for others. It's not a simple question of expecting the more acceptable Haredi community members a matter of a few weeks to integrate, specially into our IDF. We also need a functioning defence force, unburdened by clearly unsuitable recruits. There is a whole mind set that needs to be changed, and in that the author is spot on!
6. Pulled no punches on the Torah kids with that diatribe
Cameron ,   USA   (02.03.13)
Though the threat of civil war was a bit overheated.
7. Finally a good article - enough is enough
David ,   Israel   (02.03.13)
The thing is this segment of society is so used to having hand outs, more needs to be done for their integration then just sending them to the army.
8. | am one of the mentioned guys working from day to night .
olim hadashim ,   tel aviv/israel   (02.03.13)
I found your remarks against our haredi Jewish brothers very disturbing.Really gifted students shall learn Tora all the time.The rest shall be integrated into the workforce.But no need for such strong words. Be careful with your terminology.
9. Haredis
albert ,   sweden   (02.03.13)
The writer has 100% right!!
10. civil war? really?
ma nishma ,   modiin   (02.03.13)
Let us not get nuts, although the seculars may dislike the religious life style and want none of it, it is a long cry from having a civil war. It is only people who write yellow journalism articles like this who are a danger to our pluralistic society. Articles like this should be removed before some one actually believes some of it.
11. Hatred
Barry ,   Tel Aviv   (02.03.13)
Yeah. Those who study Torah were here long before you came, and will be here long after. So an Associate Professor of a university that gets public funding is doing a wonderful job at teaching intolerance in his words. I fear for a pogrom that people like this moronic professor will lead.
12. the author is 100% right!
nadav ,   tlv   (02.03.13)
We've been seething to separate religion from state for decades! enough is enough! Take religion out of politics! stop subsidizing the arab and haredi public schools systems! there should be ONE school system with ONE curriculoum, teaching ONLY in Hebrew, secular subjects and co-ed! If they want to pray, practice and learn within the confines of their religious sect, fine, but they should do so on their dime!
13. time for a change
Markus   (02.03.13)
Yes, this article says, what I feel. Me and my wife struggle, to earn a living, but at least we are working. I would feel ashame, to live on benefit and therefor on other peoples expense. How can these people justify not to work? My understanding of the TaNaCh is, that everyone has a duty to contribute to the society. There can't be any society, where the majority refuses to work. And my personal opinion: Anyone who doesen't want to work, shouldn't recieve anything.
14. I have long contended
Sagi   (02.03.13)
that there are only two solutions to this problem. 1. They all up and depart for NY. 2. Civil war. I personally prefer the first one but I doubt it will happen in which case the second one will be inevitable. Mark my words, there are no other alternatives. One side believes in "right"(seculars) and one side believes in "might" (haredim). No intransigience, ergo no solution, other than what I have stated.
15. #8
Moshe ,   Givataim   (02.03.13)
Well who do you think is paying for the "very giftet students learning the tora"? The same people that are also risking their "ass" for you during war. Get real: you are either with us or against us. And in case you are with us, then also share the "load" and not only the "life".
16. #1 - Interesting Numbers
Moshe ,   Givataim   (02.03.13)
Without getting into your numbers, but: 100% of our women and men are serving in the army.... 100% Do you understand? And afterwards 100% of us are working... 100% Do you understand?
17. To the Author and No14 - Aqueezed lemons!
S Judah ,   Jerusalem   (02.03.13)
That the country is turning more traditional and religious is so obvious that these sorts of words come out from a squeezed lemon. That there is a case for more Haradi participation in all walks of life is clear and will benefit all. I'm more worried about the lefty shirkers of the Tel Aviv liberal set. How are we going to get them to participate in anything productive, it is not even clear if they know what being jewish is!
18. "Apartheid" versus "melting pot"
Sagi   (02.03.13)
I state here categorically that Israel is an "Apartheid" state. I do not mean this in the way that our malefactors use the term as cheap rhetoric, rather in the true sense of the word. The meaning and definition of the word is "the status of living apart". In South Africa this was forced by legislation which is both wrong and immoral and the outcome is known to all. In Israel this is simply a fait accompli which is encouraged by a concilliatory or complacent public and a ridiculous system of government which forces compliance on the administration. Everbody lives "apart" from others. All sectors, both ethnic and religious have their communities, neighborhoods, or towns, traditions and a plethora of other divisions. One man's synogogue is not good enough for the other, women to the back of the bus, building a new town exclusively for haredim, are only a few examples. These are facts which are undeniable. This is, just as it was in South Africa, both wrong and immoral. Just as it changed there, so it shall change here. Either change will take its natural course or it will happen by violent means. I hope that my words have not been misinterpreted here. I am a realist and a pragmatist and have always understood human nature. The writing is on the wall, the winds of change are blowing.
19. Take a chill pill
Jrebecca ,   modiin   (02.03.13)
Half your students dont serve.
20. Dear Heredi - Maybe You'd Prefer Poland or Arabia?
Andrew ,   Miami,USA   (02.03.13)
21. No civil war, just a vote
Jacob E ,   Holon, Israel   (02.03.13)
Sooner or later the majority will just vote away their benefits for not supporting the state the way the rest of us do. We don't need a civil war when we have democracy. Now if they Ultra Orthodox want to fight for their benefits like they don't fight for the country, that's a different story.
22. If you were to see my younger kid with his payos and beard
Al   (02.03.13)
manning his tank, sleeping on the ground and eating tuna fish day in day out, you would all think differently. Push is coming to shove...war is coming and who do you think will be in the thick of the battle? Yes my skinny 150lb kid in his 65 ton tank. I pray for him every day and not a day goes by that I dont light a candle of hope for his and his fellow soldiers safety. He is with all kinds of kids, some religious some not. They have eachothers backs day in day out. They live, train, pray, eat and sleep within 5 feet of eachother all day everyday day in day out. There are those who do and there are those who BS themselves thru life. Every able bodied Jew in Israel must do somethung to serve or protect the country. Yes its that serious.
23. Stop funding & benefits to those haredim
Naomi   (02.03.13)
who do not work nor care about the country!! They can live somewhere else if they hate Israel. The same applied for those Israeli Arabs whose loyalty is not to Israel.
24. Haredi dressing.
Istvan ,   BUDAPEST HUNGARY   (02.03.13)
These fanatics expect "modest clothing" from other jews. Let us turn the problem, and the state ban their "traditional" dresses to wear on the streets. Antisemites all over the world use haredis' dresses as an evidence to prove jews are subhumans. Really normal peoples do not dress like these. We are in the XXI century and the stake is the survival and dignity of the jewish nation. Haredis endanger seriously both.
25. Overblown?
Mark ,   London, UK   (02.03.13)
1. Isn't it rather a bellicose position to use the words "civil war". I understood that the haredi favourite weapon is spitting. Unpleasant as this is, surely it does not really stack up against the array of the remainder of the population. 2. Wasn't there is a proposal on the table to link citizenship to a loyalty oath to the Jewish state? Surely this would apply to all citizens. 3. Forcing reluctant recruits to the military never seems like a wise option. There's no saying what they will do with the guns. Besides, is it not the case that only some are involved in front line combat duty. 3. Forcing unwilling constripts to other forms of national service is a sensible alternative. 4. Ending subsidies cannot mean the ending of the haredi lifestyle. as Haredi scholars have managed without state stipends for many generations. Sounds like a gimmick from 1948 which has got completely out of hand. 5. Here in the UK there is a lot of discussion in the media about native and immigrant people who live off benefits. Do haredi in UK live off the state too? If so, it's kept very secret or there would be a very negative impact on jewish relations with the rest of the community.
26. A house divided cannot stand.
Raptor   (02.03.13)
The sectorial nature of Israeli politics and society are detrimental to a healthy and prosperous nation. All must be equal in the eyes of the law, all must serve equally and all must receive equally. Privileges come only with obligations.
27. #19, even so, they're students
Jacob E ,   Holon, Israel   (02.03.13)
Even if half of students don't serve which I think is a very inflated figure, they are still students, paying out of their own pockets for an education that they will use for a job that will help the economy and use the money to pay for their families needs. Still less of leeches than the ultra orthodox who don't have a formal education and don't provide for the state and take money for their needs only.
28. What about the secular evaders?
Wise Saba ,   Western Negev   (02.03.13)
I want to know where is the same outrage about the secular youth who are evading the draft in ever increasing numbers? Either everyone does their fair share or it won't happen at all, nobody is exempt.
29. Sometimes Civil War is necessary.
Franck ,   France   (02.03.13)
What would have become the US had Lincoln left the Confederate alone with Slavery? The abolition of slavery allowed the US to become a beacon of democracy and freedom, the leader of the free world. Sure, the decision to bring back the secessionist South by force was a though solution but a necessary one. Israel's institutional Draft dodging is Immoral and secessionist. It will lead to the weakening and implosion of Israel into 2 weak entities. An Israeli Lincoln is needed in order to abolish draft-dodging and restore peace within the country. Thanks
30. Were is the rant about Israeli Arabs serving?
Jrebecca ,   modiin   (02.03.13)
Oh sorry, Israeli arabs are exempt from Rants and from serving.
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