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Minister in 1983: Mossad was disinformed on Sabra, Shatila
Roi Mandel
Published: 28.02.13, 21:01
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24 Talkbacks for this article
1. TRUE OR NOT....?
FO ,   Belgium   (02.28.13)
Is it true or not that PM Menahem Begin was kept in the dark, and that he only learned next day, listening to the BBC, what had happened in Sabra and Shatila? Is it true or not that Begin resigned as Prime Minister of Israel because of Sharon's behaviour?
2. is it ever Israel's fault?
Taner ,   NYC   (02.28.13)
They kill, they bulldoze, they use white phosphorus, they squat on Palestinian lands, they kill in Gaza, Jenin, Lebanon, Mavi Marmara but it is NEVER and I mean NEVER Israel's fault. Give us all a break! Man up and own up to y our crimes Israel. Yahweh does not love LIARS, THIEVES and MURDERERS.
3. The PLO Share Responsibility for Those Who Were Killed
Chaim Ben Kahan ,   Efrat, Israel   (03.01.13)
The Sabra Shatila camp was a base for PLO terrorist and not just a refugee camp as is commonly reported. The camp itself was full of foreign Islamic terrorist (Mujadeen). and the camp was reportedly heavily armed. The civilians were used as human shields by the PLO and their deaths used for political capital. The PLO also was not being retaliated against just for murdering the Lebanese leader, but also for the ethnic cleansing the PLO was engaged in of Shiites, Alawites, Druse, Jews and Christians. It's very tragic that Phalangilist murdered 465 people among them 35 innocent children whom were horrendously killed, and that is wrong, but lets not be fooled into putting the responsibility on to the IDF who otherwise were in fact saving Lebanese civilians from the PLO death squads. Lets not ignore that the PLO terrorist used these civilian camps as bases to ethnic cleanse the Lebanese people and commit acts of terrorism. This at least for justice sake puts the tragedy into proper perspective and we should recall that if not for the PLO there likely would have been no civil war in Lebanon.
4. Christians killed Muslims
y-man ,   budapest   (03.01.13)
and the Jews blamed the Jews.
5. Christians
GENESIS ,   JHB RSA   (03.01.13)
The people who killed maims and murdered were all Christians and the the Christian world had a hard time facing the fact. As usual over the past 2000 years "Just blame the Jews"! We have also been blamed for both World Wars, and not to mention the Twin Towers theory! This one was not our fault !!!
6. Ynet and Rewriting og History
David ,   USA   (03.01.13)
The war was with Lebanion? and the Masacared were Lebanees? Sharon war was to get Yasser Arafat, and Seconded, Sabra and Shatella refugee camops are Palestinias Camps. You can not be a refugee in your oown Country. That was blood on Israel hand, and they are responsible. .
7. Taner, #2, you are #2
Golani ,   Vineland, USA/Israel   (03.01.13)
Taner, I don't know where you come from or what you are, but you are way off base. Israel has a defensive army. We do not go around killing or targeting civillians. We do not squat on Palestinian lands, because there is really no such thing. Arab Israelis are allowed to live anywhere in Israel and they do. The Palestinians, a new invention, want a state and they will not allow Jews to live in their state. Again, we fight defensive battles, and we avoid civillian deaths. Unfortunatly in battal against terrorist that use human shields, civillians are killed. I know, I served in a command position and we never rejoice over a civillian death like Palestinian terrorists do.
8. Sen. Charlie Wilson on the topic
Tulia   (03.01.13)
From the book "Charlie Wison's War: He visited the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps. ‘In my usual knee-jerk fashion I assumed there was a certain amount of sensationalism in the press and assumed Israel’s culpability had been exaggerated, but I also felt it my duty to see for myself.’ P98. ‘When we got into the camps,’ he recalls, ‘the grief and mourning was still going on. It had been maybe a week since the attack, and we walked down and ran into this woman who was an American Jew...she told me that her people had done something terrible. She walked us down to where the victims had been buried in a mass grave.... And I began to get a really terrible feeling in my stomach about it. And what was hanging over me was the Israeli guilt.’ ‘But when we walked about fifty feet and one of the American embassy people showed me where the Israeli command post was, and I looked at it and at that moment I lost it. My heroes were forever blemished because they would have had to be blindfolded not to have seen and heard what was happening. And then it was clear that they set up the whole thing and sat there and watched it.’ Something dies in a man like Charlie Wilson when he loses his faith in the purity of a cause. P99
9. Sabra and Chatilla was Arabs killing Arabs
Robert Rosen   (03.01.13)
Sharon had nothing to do with the killings. Elie Hobeika was the person who ordered the killings and not Ariel Sharon. What you didn't tell people, after Sabra and Chatilla, Hobeika was put under protection by Assad in Lebanon. After Syria invaded and took over Lebanon in 1990. Hobeika was rewarded by Assad for his actions in Sabra and Chatilla and put in the Lebanese parliament for 10 years. It was then learned by Hobeika's bodyguard, (Roger Hatem), Elie Hobeika was a Syrian agent in the 82 War. Hatem was Hobeika's bodyguard for 10 years. Roger Hatem wrote a book called, from Israel to Damascus. Hatem documents, how Hobeika ordered the killings at Sabra and Chatilla to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon. The only reason why the Christians went along with Hobeika's orders, was to avenge the thousands of Christians, who were killed by the PLO in Damour Lebanon and because the Lebanese Christian President Gamayel was just killed. 2nd, in 1985, the Syrian backed Amals Shiites, attacked the same Sabra camp and killed 650 Arabs. Ofcourse when Arabs kill each other, no one cares. What Hatem documents in his book. Sharon told Hobeika only to go after the armed PLO gunman in Sabra. Sharon made very clear to Hobeika not to target any civilians. Hobeika agreed to the orders. Then Hobeika gave his own orders to his men. Kill anyone they see in Sabra. Hobeika did this, to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon . If the Arabs are so concerned about the people killed in Sabra and Chatilla, why did Syria and Lebanon protect the person who ordered the killings. (Elie Hobeika). Why did Syria put Hobeika in the Lebanese parliament? Why didn't Syria or Lebanon prosecute Hobeika? Maybe there worred, he would tell the truth. Which is, Hobeika under orders from Assad was responsible. What you had in Sabra and Chatilla was Arabs killing Arabs. Not one single Israeli killed any Arab there.
10. Taner: Sabra and shatila killings by Phalangists
jdc ,   New York, US   (03.01.13)
These killings were by Christians, kapisch, Christians ! They should pay penance. Israelis do not squat on anyone's land, they have (mostly) recovered Jewish ancestral lands. As for the other killings, yea, war is nasty and I would say they were, by and large, appropriate and morally justified as self-defense. I am content with that. You do not twist yourself into a pretzel every time Quassam is fired. You probably cheer. The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of the least bloody in the ME. So take a pill and pick a bigger problem.
11. #2 Oh, silly you...
Alex   (03.01.13)
Regarding the topic of this article, no, Israel was not responsible for something they didn't participate in. But it's as usual blame the Jews for everything, mass immigration, WTC, WW2, AIDS, the Plague etc. it's always the Jews fault... As for the things you mentioned: - Kill? - Yes, certainly we kill terrorists and others who want to destroy us. But ofcourse, we're Jews, we have no right to self defence... - Bulldoze? - Yes, we bulldoze illegal buildings projects which lacks building permits. Most bulldozed properties are actually those of illegal Jewish settlers. - Phosphorus? - No, WE don't use phosphorus. However two officers were found guilty of breaking IDF codex and ordered the use of white phosphorus (which per say isn't illegal) in a densely populated area in Gaza during the war 2009. But ofcourse, we all know Jews are collectively responsible for the acts of one or a few people... - Squat on palestinian land? - In the West Bank in the settlements, yes, sure. We're not necessarily proud of it, but in the event the palestinians will ever accept peace with us they'll be compensated with Israeli land. Now, silly you, is there anything new you have to contribute with or is it just copy pasted propaganda that have circulated in re-made versions since 1948 you got?
12. to #2 That is exactly why He doesn't love those you support!
EST ,   Miami USA   (03.01.13)
13. Lebanese phalangist equipped and
Truth ,   Palestine   (03.01.13)
commanded by sharon and ordered in by sharon and it was Israelis who knew that there was a massacre in progress and blocked exits for the civilians, and fired flares to light up the killing zones, and lied to the Americans, and the Red Cross and the UN. If I shoot you in the back, who is resonsible, me or the bullet?
14. #2 Taner, yah weh weh deluded...big time
Mark ,   Lodz, Poland   (03.01.13)
15. No Escape Route
Zechariah   (03.01.13)
The Rambam declared an enemy ought have an escape route but the civilians in Shabra and Shatilla were Blocked How is that explained ,In fact the whole war was a disaster with six hundred Jewish soldiers plus killed some sons of Holocaust Survivors.In Tyre seventy Israels were blown to Death by a female suicide Bomber reflecting gross incompetence of defense by Sharon and Eitan.
16. The Blood is On the PLO
Chaim Ben Kahan ,   Efrat, Israel   (03.01.13)
17. Realy?
Avi ,   NYC, USA   (03.01.13)
Actually, the German people were also not responsible for what happened in the death camps. Most of the actual, hands-on, perpetrators were Ukrainian guards and Jewish selected prisoners. To paraphrase Begin: "Jews and Ukrainians killed Jews, so why does everyone accuse the Germans?" Come on innocent lambs, I have served in that war and the talk in the headquarters of division 162 weeks before the massacre occurred had been that once the PLO is evacuated from West Beirut "something big will happen that will cause a massive flight of all the Palestinians from Lebanon". And it did happen, what a coincidence! Only the Palestinians did not flee. Hizbullah was created and it was we who ran away in the end from Lebanon.
18. Sabra and Shatilla
Randy ,   Chicago , USA   (03.01.13)
were massacres commited by Christian allies of Israel. They were in retaliation of massacres commited by the PLO and Their Syrian allies agaist the Christian village of Damour in Jan, 1976. Hudreds of Christian Men ,women and children wrer killed. Christian phalangists never forgot and commited the reprisals agaist sabra and shatilla. Israel was not directly responsible
19. leave them alone
rm ,   Amsterdam NL   (03.01.13)
why drag an old, sad tragic affair out in the open again? In the end too many people died and no one has clean hands...no not even Israel
20. Israel has never killed a single Muslims ever.
BUTSeriously ,   Sydney   (03.01.13)
Not even one Muslim was ever killed by Israel - outsde of 'death-to-Israel' self defense, a traditional, genocidal Islamic doctrine. Still, whatever Israel does or does not do - Muslims will blame her for everything. Including shark attacks & tsunamis. Muslims have no other claim to fame.
21. #7
Rau   (03.01.13)
no such thing of God's given land.
22. Then Majdanek is not Germany's fault
Albrecht ,   EU   (03.01.13)
The Ukrainians killed the Jews in Majdanek. Not the Germans.
23. To: No. 22
Sarah B ,   U.S.A. / Israel   (03.01.13)
Your attempt to duck out of responsibility for the Holocaust is shameful. Though not surprising.
24. Phosphorus
Warren ,   USA   (03.16.13)
First , having fought in 82 war and having been in every hole in that country, Israel did not nor do I hope would it ever condone a massacre of noncombatants . However as to phosphorus , I always carried at least one white smoke grenade, which in reality was phosphorus and I don't see anything wrong with that. As to civilian s in Lebanon. We were not ever allowed to shoot into civilian areas unless we could clearly hit the enemy, without endangering others.
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