That was an unreal and disgusting comment. The Haredim need to understand Torah--they don't need to be criminalized. Contributing to the land they live in can be considered a good deed--and they are helping their fellow Jews. This is a workable solution--show them what it means to be fully men again. Give them a chance. They're just scared. What you have here is aactally a problem with leadership, who makes money through theft. Again, totally against Torah. The followers really don't get it. By being stupidly persecutorial and ugly, you condemn an entire group to the poor leadership they are suffering under. Requiring the Haredim to work and serve CAN happen in a positive way. Honestly, they can listen to audio Torah on mini-iPods doing almost any manual helping kinds of things. Men and women can work on separate teams. Many other solutions can be thought of to help them become responsible and learn to work AND study. When studying is the only thing held up as having any worth within a social group--then you threaten to take that way, how do you expect them to feel? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water…

Important Talmudic Reminders to all those who claim to rely exclusively on Halach'a : 1. Dineh d'malch'utey...dineh! = The [secular] laws of the State that have been promulgated nationally apply to ALL Jews in that State (Medinah) without exceptions. No exceptions based on specious interpretations of these laws can be granted even by the highest rabbinical authorities. 2. Only 10 Batlanim (no more!) financially supported by a given town/city will devote their entire time to study (Limud) for the spiritual benefit of the rest of the citizenry...more than these ten Batlanim is evidently superfluous. Ergo, beyond these 10 chosen Batlanim, all able-bodied males have to work for a living and also abide by state laws...no exceptions! 3. Ch'oteh umech'tay ett harabim = sinning by inciting others to transgress any promulgated law is the GRAVEST of all sins!

that are so diametrically opposite, common ground will never be found. Too bad Israel can't cut the Haredim loose, ceed them land and let them fend for themselves militarily and economically. They would last long.......

They WOULDN'T last long.......

Your reasoning is partisan and twisted. I specifically defined mr recommendations as applying to draft dodgers. You are not a law unto yourselves. It is not up to you how you serve the state. Even hatzolah people have to obey the law of the land, or did you fail to learn that bit of Torah. And the political parties of the Haredim and their rabbinic leadership advocate mass disobedience and refusal to serve. Even if, like you I twisted my logic and equated hatzolah with military service as you do, hatzolah does not represent the majority Haredi position as R. Auerbach Shas and R. Yosef and UTJ do, nor do most Haredim serve there. Many are, including their leadership, content to watch their brothers die and call that Torah. Sad that one who answers only "midda keneged mida" is the one called the hater. Sad for you and your crazy grip on what you think is Torah.

I'm astonished at the depth of Ultra-Orthodox Torahlessness. 31 - Requiring prisoners to work is "criminalization"? News flash: prisoners are already convicted criminals. Refusing to serve the country is a breach of the law, which is criminal and punishable for jail time -- none of which was my invention nor my suggestion. My suggestion was that these prisoners be put to work on work crews so that they learn that they're not a special class too good to work like everyone else. Your reply proves that you regard Khareidim as a special class too good to work as a garbage collector, street sweeper, janitor, plumber unclogging toilets, mechanic getting his hands dirty, etc. like the rest of us. I'm not too good to have done these things. Nor are you. Nor are they. Your attitude, that requiring them to work while they're in jail is "sick," is the typical and just basis for those who rightly point out that Ultra-Orthodox, from which they generalize "Jews" are racist and apartheidist, regarding all of the rest of us as your Shabbos goys. 29 - Advocating outlawing the study of Torah? You slander to pervert the facts and create strawmen. In fact, I think everyone, including the goyim, should learn and come to Torah. We should be a Light of Torah illuminating the nations -- instead of an abusive and tyrannical cloud of Darkness threatening to engulf us; sons of Light instead of sons of Darkness. The frenzied claims by so many in the Ultra community that everyone is out to forbid Torah study leaves no doubt that this is incitement by key Ultra-Orthodox rabbis. The fruits of these Ultra-Orthodox, and their yeshivas, is slander and sinat khinam -- spitting, cursing and throwing feces, etc. toward fellow Jews. What everyone is trying to get through to you is that the disdainful, sanctimonious, and hypocritical Ultra-Orthodox, who abuse their fellow Jews as if they were your personal Shabbos goyim, who spit on Orthodox school girls and call them unspeakable names, who slander fellow Jews calling them goyim and putting false words in their mouths, betrays brutish ignoramuses who don't know Torah from their tukhas, whose cups are overflowing with hypocrisy and khilul ha-Sheim!!! Despite their meticulous adherence to its rituals, they neither grasp nor follow Torah. Torah instructs that the prayers of such sanctimonious hypocrites -- diametrically opposite to your spurious claims of "saving" Israel -- are toeivot (Prov. 28.9). There is no kipur for your abuses of fellow Jews until you make restitution and teshuvah! And, if not, you will learn the hard way Whom you are defying and that He means what He said in Torah -- including the parts you are not being taught and don't read. You must know enough to recognize that ignorance is no excuse for transgressing Torah.

You do not disoute my facts- you cannot. The Haredi took advantage of laws designed to exempt persons studying to be religious pulpit leaders. This was disgusting and in the US, everyone caught on, Jewish and non-Jewish. As to your story, here is mine: my father did not want to go into the army and fight - unlike yours who was raring to go, but just had better things to do, but my father fought anyway, in combat, for his country. Finally in a democracy, we dont have rulers. We have elected-and obligations to our fellow citizens, not to "rulers". I see you have no idea what it means to live in a free and democratic society. Why am I not surprised? I know the Haredi well by the way, that is why I do not respect them.

and be parasites. THAT's what's sick!

Honestly- I can't figure out your post. Not sure what your talking about either when you say happy to see people die. Nor do i understand you rant about the rabbis or the midda kenegged midda comment? i am happy to have a coffee with you and maybe get a clearer picture of your logic

When i am presented with irrefutable evidence that prayer has the powers that are claimed for it and i mean empirical scientific proof not a leap of faith, then i will accept prayers powers until then don't make claims you cannot quantify and qualify. mere assertions mean nothing, just like there are still people who think the Earth is flat and you can fall off the edge.

Both for a reasonable handle on "powers that are claimed for [prayer]" (not the same as those claimed by typical religious clerics) and "empirical scientific proof." Your dismissal of prayer (meditation, whatever you prefer to call it) as an imaginary nothing is ignorant; NOT scientific, logical nor even moderately educated.