Jewish Scene
Police ban Kaddish by women at Kotel
Kobi Nachshoni
Published: 04.04.13, 14:38
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23 Talkbacks for this article
1. WHO MADE Yossi Prienti a RELIGIOUS dictator OF ALL THE JEWS?
G I Jew ,   AMERICA THE BEAUTIUL   (04.04.13)
THIS Yossi Prienti MUST BE RELIEVED OF DUTY...he is a sexist destroyer of human rights. Where does a schlumpy ignoranus of a cop come off to tell ANYONE Jew, christian or anyone else HOW AND WHERE TO PRAY TO G-D! Some balls! HE SHOWS THE MINDLESSNESS OF THE JEWS WHO THINK they are more Jewish than THOU! His stomping on the rights, and the repression of women, his denial of HUMAN RIGHTS, his denial of JEWS TO PRAY, whether male female or straight or gay or black or white night and day, HE HAS NO RIGHT TO STOP A JEW FROM PRAYING or else start sending JEWS BACK TO THE CAMPS by fellow Jews.! STOP Yossi Prienti before he thinks he's G-D's messenger.
2. WHERE in the Torah does it say "Put the policemen in charge"
Jewbie ,   ATLANTA GA USA   (04.04.13)
WHERE in the Torah does it say "Put Yossi Prienti's policemen in charge of all JEWISH religious activities, religious exclusions, the exclusion of women's civil rights and religious rights and continue the tyranny of the cold old ultras... Shame on Yossi Prienti, he represents all that is wrong and backwards in Israel culture.
3. 2 wrongs; no peaceful solution...a pity b4 the eyes of G-d!
Sarita Montiel ,   Israel   (04.04.13)
Rabbi Rabinowitz is wrong. The Western Wall is not a synagogue and Rabinowitz is not the Supreme Possak or Supreme Guardian of the Western Wall. (How did he get this job anyway? Who appoints the Rabbi of the Wall? When was this post created? How many years has the good rabbi held the post? No answers on line - so perhaps Ynet could do an in-depth background article on that topic of the Rabbi of the Wall) The Women of the Wall are also wrong What is this militant obsession with Rosh Hodesh? If it were really about keeping the mitzvot and not about militant feminism and crazy obsession then the Women of the Wall would be at the Western Wall every day! Humbly praying before the L-rd. In small peaceful groups haven't ANY of these ladies read Gandigee's works to know how to engage in passive peaceful resistance? It seems not. It seems that all that they are concerned with is cutting a huge divisive gash in the heart of the house of Israel! Both sides are wrong for turning up the volume and for putting the police in the middle of their mess. Both sides should abid by the LAW OF THE LAND Even if at the moment both sides think they are 100% correct.
4. what are these women winching about?
Just Sayin' ,   Israel   (04.04.13)
the ladies started out in 1988, they have a legally mandated location for their services at Robinson's Arch which they feel is somehow "less" than the western wall. NewsFlash: its all an archaeological site, the western retaining wall is all one contiguous archaeological sight. If these women are so "frum" in the observance of their prayer mitzvot why aren't they are the western wall and/or Robinson's arch area EVERYDAY? Why can't these women accept that the "Dinah da Malhuta Dinah!" After all there have been 2 court cases and at least 4 justice ministry meetings regarding this matter...and each time these women have lost. So what now winching women of the wall? Do you need a jihad in order to be happy?
5. r posts 1 & 2 serious?! they attack the shin gimmel!
Jewess ,   Israel   (04.04.13)
1. those 2 posts sound like it is one rant from one person 2. this isn't about Jerusalem District Police Commander Major-General Yossi Prienti with all due respect for his position in this case he is actually being pushed into taking the responsibility without having any authority and therefore he is in the Shin Gimmel (Gate Keeper) position 3. the holders of the the authority at the Western Wall are: a. The Government of the State of Israel who in 1967 via the special law of the Holy Places empowered: b. The Chief Rabbinate who turned around and empowered: c. The Rabbi of the Wall The Rabbi of the Wall has gone beyond the scope of his authority. The Women of the Wall have rallied into divisive and destructive Militant Feminism. In 2002 and again in 2004 and even right now the Ministry of Justice and The Israeli Supreme Court sitting as the High Court of Justice have issued direct and clear legal rulings on the matter. The Women of the Wall have an area of the Western Wall at Robinson's Arch which was expressly set aside for them and which they refuse to use claiming that "it is an archaeological" site. What we have here is two HUGE and Resounding WRONGS and that never makes a right! It is time to calm down stop blaming the Shin Gimmel and get to work on finding a reasonable solution to the problem. For the record neither the Rabbi of the Wall nor the Women of the Wall represent me...they are both overly militant and not seeing any possible compromise and that is never ever good for the People of the House of Israel.
6. easy to fight this Taliban move!
Bluegrass Picker ,   Afula   (04.04.13)
Israeli cops pull this nonsense because they face zero negative incentives. But negative incentives can be easily arranged: The first cop who arrests an American-citizen woman for saying this or that prayer, can be indicted by an AMERICAN grand jury for a FELONY. Remember, Grand Juries are 100%autonomous & not under the control of any Officer of the Court. Grand Jurors can even do their own investigations in person! They are legally completely autonomous. Anyone can send an affidavit to the foreman of any emplaneled Grand Jury alleging a crime has taken place! Hate speech by hareidi rebbe's can be also indicted. Let's play hardball, people!
7. Several points.
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (04.04.13)
The ruling was made by the Israeli Supreme Court, not by the chief of police. The Rabbi of the Wall said women will not be arrested for saying Kaddish although the original Supreme Court ruling banned women from saying Kaddish at the wall Plaza, but not at Robinson's Arch. Although it is true many Orthodox communities allow women to say Kaddish, they require a minyan of men for anyone to say Kaddish. The memorial prayers for fallen soldiers and Holocaust victims are not Kaddish, they are closer to Yizkor, which women and men both say. Equal representgation of Reform, secular, Progressive Jews and women on the management committee of the Kosel? Does Temple Emanuel or any Reform temple have Orthodox and Haredi Jews on its management committee? The Western Wall Plaza is the local Orthodox shul for many Jerusalem Jews, very few of whom are Reform, secular or Progressive. Lastly, do I have the religious freedom in America to build a mechitza in a Reform Temple as part of my religious freedom to do whatever I want, whenever I want?
8. bluegrass Taliban
yosef ,   williamsburg   (04.05.13)
Is that Afula or Alabama?
9. #7 hakotel is NOT an orthodox synagogue!
Ze'ev   (04.05.13)
Its a place for ALL of us, not only for the orthodox!
10. These Women should Be Allowed To Pray In Peace
World Citizen ,   the world   (04.05.13)
How is it that the priest class can take a love for the Creator, and over time, turn that devotion into a dogmatic monstrosity? And then they want you to pay them for the evil they have done!
11. Women, stop going to the Kotel. Boycott it.
Michael ,   California, USA   (04.05.13)
Let the orthodox men choke in their own perspiration. Most of them love to see women discriminated there. It gives them the authority fix they don't get anywhere else. Tell them you will not return until Israeli secular laws are extended to apply to the Kotel area. Watch how much international support you will receive and count the money contributed in support of your boycott.
12. The Kotel isn't even the Soreg, much less Women's Court,
Paqid Yirmeyahu ,   (04.05.13)
Much less the Court of Israel that today's rabbis are adopting it to DISPLACE. The Soreg is where the warning was placed for allogeneis (gentiles) to approach no closer upon pain of death. Even Hellenist gentiles were free to approach as close as the Soreg -- which was WELL inside today's Kotel. The Orthodox embrace of DISPLACING the location of the Beit ha-Miqdash with the Kotel, a constructive "quit claim" acquiescing to Muslim control of the location of our ancient Beit ha-Miqdash, is displacement theology no less than Christianity or Islam. The Kotel isn't even the oldest section of the outer wall. Ask any reputable archeologist, the oldest portion is located immediately north of "The Seam" on the east side of Har ha-Bayit, facing Har Zeitim.
13. The End Result?
Sherlock Holmes ,   London England   (04.05.13)
Even before this article was published Rabbi Rabbinowitz had informed the media that this suggestion by the Court would not be enforced and that women would be allowed to say Kaddish, presumably with a minyan of men standing next to the mechitza. Halachically there is no tradition of women saying Kaddish, but neither is there any prohibition. Regarding memorial prayers for the IDF and the Holocaust, these prayers are more like Yizkor than Kaddish, which a child says for a parent. The Kaddish incidentally has no mention of mourning and is said by the Sheliach Tzibbur at the end of each section of the service.
14. Reply to number 9. Status of Kosel Plaza
Joseph ,   London England   (04.05.13)
The Western Wall Plaza has the legal status of an Orthodox synagogue, while the Robinson's Arch secrion of the Western Wall has the status of a non-Orthodox synagogue -- according to the Israeli Supreme Court, which heard the range of arguments before making its ruling. That means that the WoW are in contempt of court when they do their monthly photo op at the Ezras Nashim of the Western Wall Plaza. The police are merely enforcing the Court order.
15. Number 10 Pray in peace
Akiva ,   NYC   (04.05.13)
The Israeli Court gave the Women of the wall the Southwest corner of the western Wall for them to pray in peace. They chose however to offend the women at the Western Wall Plaza with their Rosh Chodesh publicity stunts. Every where in the Jewish world there are separate sites for Traditional and Progressive Jewish worship -- and the Western Wall is no different.
16. Amazing how we give freedom of religion to everyone but us
Avi   (04.05.13)
Where Christians payed dhimmi tax, where sunnis and shias killed each other and where the Bahai's were facing annihilation we gave them all their basic religious rights and protection, yet when it comes to our own people we act like the darkest third world country on the planet. There is no legal basis for this anymore than the Justice ministry saying all Israelis must wear pink hats on Tuesdays. They do not have the authority, moral ground or the public support and that renders their whim void.
17. Not all Rabbis r Cohenim (Priests) & not all Cohenim r Rabis
Israela ,   Israel   (04.05.13)
In other words #10 you misunderstood an important point in Judaism. Please do go back review and then come back with an intelligent comment.
18. Judaism finds women's prayer less desirable to G-d
Wow   (04.05.13)
19. If you think..
Jesse ,   Canada   (04.05.13)
20. If you think..
Jesse ,   Canada   (04.05.13)
That middle aged women aren't secret service agents you know nothing about the history of western secret sevices. The antisemite brits stole the idea from the US the whole OSS (before there was any CIA) were women with PHD's from Yale, Barnard and Harvard.
21. Let the spirit of Sarah Schenirer pervade the opinion of :
Let the spirit of Sarah Schenirer pervade the opinion of Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz
22. Where is the Western Wall
Ellen ,   Israel/NYC   (04.07.13)
The Western Wall starts at the Southern Wall and then runs north--ending, in terms of what is visible somewhere under ground ( which is seen when you walk through the Kotel tunnels) The Kotel Plaza is one section of Western Wall. It is no more or less sacred than the area of Western Wall in Robinson's Arch. In fact, I an Orthodox female who is not part of this group--I wish I had daily access to the Robinson's Arch section. I then would not have to contend with tourists talking on cellphones and stuffing notes, Christians crossing themselves, Bar Mitzvah celebrations bringing hoards of people etc. etc. Robinson's Arch is a more peaceful, meaningful and quiet location. Unfortunately WOW do not appear to care about really dovening in their fashion. They DO seem to care about making political statements.
23. Wall
Moshe Kosower ,   Safed, Israel   (04.09.13)
What is today known as the Western Wall was not always a place of prayer for Jews. Yitzhak ben Moshe Hafarhi, who visited Jerusalem in the 14th century, relates in his book Kaftor Vaferah (chapt 6) that the Jews of Jerusalem used to gather at the Golden Gates, which in Hebrew and Arabic are known as the gates of mercy, for prayer. He makes no mention at all of the western wall. Robinson's arch, the southern wall, (archeological park) and the eastern wall, are all equally holy. The southeastern corner is especially impressive and they should consider building an egalitarian place there, or any other spot along the wall. That is, if their real interest is quiet devotion according to what they believe. If, on the other hand, what they are really interested in is carrying on a campaign for what they perceive as "women's rights" and using the western wall as a gimmick to attract publicity, they should carry on as before. What do they really want?
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