'Documented incident, the woman kept the note' Is the author stupid? That proves neither that a) someone else wrote the note; nor b) the woman was dressed 'modestly'.

And i'm a Hareidi woman. PLEASE DON't tell me what i feel! What I FEEL is that you, the author of this article do not understand the Hareidi world and are making lots of assumptions as well as saying really mean things about us to make everyone mad! There are different levels of religiousness. I wear skirts (denim ones too) over my knee, with shirts that cover my elbows and i cover my hair. I feel perfectly fine about my dress and the way things are because in my neighborhood, i can take a walk at night and feel safe. i can leave my door unlocked most of the day and not worry. because things really are more peaceful in a Hareidi neighborhood. And most of us really like it THE WAY IT IS. not perfect, but better than most places! On the other hand, non religious people can also get extreme in their clothing, many times wearing very little and very revealing clothing. How do they feel about themselves knowing it is easy to view their body!? You see a woman with a very very low cut top, etc. and this puts thoughts into people's minds. Does she really want this! Is she crazy! Perhaps when things are so "available" for all to see, it cheapens it. And from what i see, much of society is falling apart. Non religious people rather live together in many cases and not have children. Perhaps MODESTY isn't as bad as you paint it!

everybody (literally and spiritually), the better humanity will fare in the future. Actually it may have a future. It seems inconcievable in this day and age, to be buying into blatant superstition mixed with large dose of male chauvinism and pure material greed: that's "Religion" in a nutshell. No,faith ain't more "sophisticated" or "etheral" than my above description.

Dear Esti I think you have it all wrong Do TSHUVA. WE HAVE GREAT RESPECT FOR OUR WIVES AND MOTHERS. The do not have to be in a political arena. They accomplishments are great in the sanctaries of their homes.

Haredi women are subject to extensive brainwash from their earliest youth, and kept carefully away from males, except their brothers and fathers. This automatically distorts their perceptions and gives them a false self-image as potential dangers to the precious male who must not be distracted from the serious business of life, studying torah. The womons essential role as mother, carer and breadwinner is not enough. They should be free to study secular subjects if they wish, and think for themselves, not have everything pre-processed by the male leaders. The crazy lengths to which current " modesty" rules have gone to deserve the mockery and disgust it attracts in the general public, and not just the non-religious.

No one is telling you to stop wearing skirts. No one is saying that dressing modestly is bad. You COMPLETELY avoided the main point of the article, which is the disrespect and exclusion of women that comes along with such rules. I've experienced both haredi and modern orthodox communities, and there is a HUGE difference. While modern orthodox as a whole dress modestly, they generally don't spit in your face, force you to the back of the bus, and humiliate you for dressing in a way they don't "approve" of. Dress as you like, no one cares-just don't enable the blatant disrespect and degredation that comes along with extreme lines of thinking!

RIva - do your neighbors or the rabbi of your shul know that you are surfing the treif internet including YNET? And the modesty thing is indeed a problem when haredim men attack women on buses, or when hesder soldiers walk out of a tekes, or when women are banned from the stage and cannot even receive recognition (with no singing) because haredi men are in the room and may be "offended". The offense is haredi over-frumness. It's a problem, whether you accept that fact or not.

Sorry mrs Riva, I think you misunderstand the article. Mrs Shoshan is not writing modesty is bad. On the contrary! What she is against is humiliation against women

It's simple and evident that in Orthodox Judaism common buchers/men are humiliated. Young ones have elders over them, who have shmashim over them, who have regular rabbis over them, who have Cohanim and rabbinical council over them, and I don't even know a 10 percent of this demeaning pyramid. Any self respecting bucher will rebel, and take it out on whom? Naturally, he will take his anger out upon the weakest link in the Jewish religion, upon the poor, discriminated, disregarded, disrespected woman. While in our secular society women are getting stronger and reaching par in social and economic standing with men, Haredi women are only beginning to rebel against this age old discrimination. This excellent article was written by a very brave Haredi woman who realizes how much fighting she has yet to do. And she will fight, and she will prevail, no matter how hard and long it takes.

My ancestors in Poland were not fanatic like this. They were just Jews, not cranky people like those latter-day haredim you have. Israel is going worse and worse everyday. Poverty can be linked to religious fanaticism, it happens everywhere in the world. We have haredim here in Brazil too. They are just stupid ignorant ones; completely alienated people.

i'm a hareidi woman. i have a bagrut. I have a degree in Accounting. i work in a secular environment. i believe in the benefits of modesty. I am certainly not an oppressed woman in any way shape or form, not by my husband, nor by my community. I am happily married. I understand that there are problems in some of the ultra, ultra sectors, and some loonies who do crazy things, but this is a small section of the chareidi population. Way to go lumping everyone together.

All people should have freedom of choice. But when woman wear tefilin and a Talit at the Kotel, I think that is nothing more than feminists acting out. Simply Crazy.

I have a cousin who is an orthodox rabbi in the UK, he is not a haredi , just the opposite no beard, regular clothes even watches football if its not being played on Saturday and his kids read Harry Potter. He is married and his wife dresses very modestly just same as the average haredi woman does. Haredi do not make their women dress like ninjas the way Muslims do but they are supposed be modest and that means staying covered up, not wearing clothes men would like pants and cover their head just the way the wife of my cousin does. In most very religious families in and outside of Israel the woman will dress modestly. With kosher busses I think most women like them even non religious women like segregated busses because it makes them feel safer. Problem is alot of the men on the kosher busses are rude and so it does seem oppressive but if the men had more respect would there still be the same objections to having a handful of kosher busses on certain routes? There is no ban on haredi women driving, they might not do it in Mea Shearim but in other towns and cities ( hared exist outside Jerusalem ) unlike the Saudi women they do drive and their husbands do not object. Women of the Wall are a bunch of radical feminists and if the author was actually being objective and not trying to dostort facts he would know that WOW do not represent the average woman who wants to pray at the Kotel. Of course there are underground movements of dissatisfied haredi women but what percentage of them are not happy with their life and their culture Just about the only thing the author says thats not misrepresenting the fact is that things are getting worse. There are more radical haredi around these days and instead of moaning about the very existence of the hared why not try discover what the problem is and stop it?

Doesn't anyone get tired of the incessant, mindless Charedi bashing? Not a day goes by where there isn't some fault found with the Charedi sector, and it's starting to get annoying hearing about it. Change comes from within - you can't change an entire sector of society without changing yourself, and badmouthing it sure as heck doesn't help your cause.

Of course ms shushan is entitled too her opinion, but is she a serious haredi journalist whose opinion should be given serious weight?, like , say, Jonathan Rosenblum?. On the net I could find only her feminist blogs and one article about her and some friends boycotting the haredi parties. It is hard to say that she represents any significant part of haredi women.

Modesty in and of its self is not a bad thing and should be encouraged. The Haridim unfortunately look on modesty as a fixed idea based on 16th century mores. It is about time that the Haridim realize that the definition of modesty and the place of women in society has changed greatly from the 16th century.

none of them has any military training. Their menfolk can see that they are defenseless. Can you imagine if hareidi women organized undercover female-bus-riders, then kicked the teeth out of harrasers? Word would spread quickly!! Believe me, the hareidi men are just like the non-Hebrews. They only comprehend force.

Haredi Jews have Twisted Judaism into an unrecognizable mess. The reputation and safety of Jews everywhere depends on the isolation of haredim until their members leave the sects and rejoin society. The shtetl should have died in europe. It must not be allowed to poison the state.

If anyone thinks its normal for Yashiva boys who have been brain washed by these so calle rabbis to curse and spit at women based on some kind of medevil religous code then they are sick and a sad reflection of religious society.

I always believed that it was healthier (mentally and religiously) to be in the middle without being extreme to either side.

Foul words,obscene ads,current "modern" dress code among youths and less young adults are destroying western civilization ...

What is taking away their freedom? This debate is not about whether WOW are theologically correct. I don't think they are correct. But the debate is about the imposition of extreme radicalism by the Khareidim and the diminishing differences between their imposition and that of the Muslim radicals. The more power the Khareidim obtain the more they will exert. And it must be said that the Taliban base their extremes in ideas of justice where the Khareidim represent an entirely more dangerous threat: routinely trampling justice to do whatever they want offering only some off-the-wall, illogical analogy that they try to pawn off as halakhah. Whereas Muslims have a pretty good idea of what will result in punishment, Khareidim are not constrained by justice. If the Khareidim aren't stripped of their rule, you're headed for a very dark place under the tyranny and persecution of sons of Darkness.

Once in williamsburgh in Brooklyn i was told to taxe separated bus to go to crown heights,i refused and took a taxi with my wife and children,and I will never let a Haredim in Israel splitting on me or my family in a bus or a street ( I am a religious doctor and I think by myself )

So basically, she just silenced any opinion that contradicts hers. If you agree with her, great! If not, you're brainwashed. Cute approach, but I don't buy it.

The source for most of the extreme thinking on modesty [tzniut] is the Shuchan Aruch. It has sections that talk about women needing to cover up and couples at weddings should never dance together as it might lead to something (what? fun? can't have that) The kitzur shulchan aruch (the shortened "set table", written by Joseph Caro) has rules defining modesty but they're supposed to be GUIDELINES, not a weapon you beat your fellow Jews over the head with. Kashrut is not a weapon you use to abuse your fellows by saying "my kosher is better than your kosher". Similarly, modesty is not where factions scream "my modesty standards are better than yours". Ridiculous. Modesty has its virtues, but not by inflicting abuse and being holier than thou.

Thank you all for acknowledging my comment. I know you think i missed the point, but i wanted to my point across that i don't feel oppressed by following a "slighly more religious way of life and what it entails." On the other hand, i do AGREE that NO one should go around throwing stones/bleach, etc at other Jews who don't! Because THAT is not permitted by Torah law as well! Yes there are some small groups of crazies but it is certainly not everyone. The article seems to lump everyone together into"hareidi sector" which is not a good idea! In Betar for instance, i have seen many non-observant people walking around with no one saying a word-"respecting them". And i have seen people being especially nice to them. (there is this too!). Yet there is a sign as you enter the city which requests that people dress modestly as a matter of respect. you would think with all the "Hareidi people" walking around, a non-religious person would feel just a bit uncomfortable coming into Betar with a low cut top, dressed for the Beach outfit, but people still come into the neighborhood like this not caring, not respecting and sometimes, even inciting others to (make a more).

Default argument: when you cannot attack what the author is saying, attack the author. Also to # 14 & 15 where are the Gedolim when young Jewish girls are being abused? Why are they not speaking out and correcting this behaviour which is clearly a Chilul Hashem? Derech Erech precedes the Torah. You can know Shas backwards, but if you are not a Mench, what is it worth? Sadly there is no leadership in Judaism today. Thank G-d for people like Esti Shoshan who are brave enough to speak out and who unfortunately have to take the mantle of leadership on their young shoulders.